Feminism and BDSM

I recently engaged in an amicable debate over the misogynistic overtones of several D/s sites (as well as some literature) with a friend of mine. She saw images of women being subjugated by their male Masters and explained that she had a lot of reservations about female submission, humiliation, objectification and many of the disciplinary measures that she felt reinforced the patriarchal domination we experience in society as a whole. She views the reverse situation, a female Mistress and male slave, as an extension of this. Why exactly else does forced feminization, cuckolding or teasing and denial do other than play on already well-enforced negative female stereotypes?

I know what she's saying, because I struggled with so many of the same ideas as I became increasingly interested in kink. Knowing the introspective thinkers around here I'm probably not alone. I've come to believe that sexual desire, particularly the sort involving power exchange, isn't very useful when viewed through a lens of politically correct values. I think those kinds of rules squelch desire. I think that socialized norms insulate us in a way that makes us feel safe, but also suffocate our erotic longings. (Side note: does anyone know of an evolutionary explanation for the correlation between sexual arousal and taboo?)

Here's why: I don't think the real issue is the source of our arousal. Assessing where the roots of our cravings come from is a good exercise in self discovery, but moralizing them is usually self-defeating at best. The most pertinent issue, and the one we can best control, is how we express our desires. It's led me to think a lot about mainstream, "vanilla" attitudes toward female sexuality. We live in a society where news shows discuss whether or not bikinis are to blame for an uptick in rapes during Spring Break (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/cri...ssue.03.23.cnn), Disney stars are endorsing date rape for a profit (http://www.salon.com/news/music/inde...ms_spectacular), where teaching sex education can still be threatened with legal repercussions (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...XZ_yAD9EVK3NG0), but other Western nations try to legally repress a woman's right to choose her own clothing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8607802.stm), I think the kink community is getting it absolutely right.

Instead of using social stigmas attached to sexual preference to control behaviors, we're fortunate enough to live out our fantasies in a place that idealizes respect, negotiation, education, information, consent, safety and care for partners before and after. I've never seen more honesty and integrity in relationships than I've seen in the BDSM community. And ultimately that isn't just about feminism; it's about the health of all parties involved.

What are your ideas and ideals surrounding feminism and kink? Have a great weekend everyone. Spanks and kisses.

My belief on the subject of the so-called taboo sexual relationships some people have with one another is that, if honest, are more intimate than the normal vanilla behaviors (at least for me).

It's easy for me to be vanilla. Society accepts it. It's "normal". However, what lurks within me is a gentleman who craves more to be sexually fulfilled. If I tell you what I need isn't that a sign of trust? if you accept me for those needs, isn't that a sign of respect? Isn't that what makes a relationship solid?

It's more than just getting me aroused, hungry and hard. Being accepted for my "deviancy", and taking it seriously and then treating me lovingly, nurturingly heightens the sense of intimacy. Sometimes I wish I was more "normal". Life would be easier, I guess. But for me to feel totally connected to someone, I need to be able to express my submissive desires, and then have them accepted. That's not totally who I am, but it is a meaningful part of myself. If those needs can be fulfilled by you, that's even better.

I hope my response fits this subject. I've been drinking margaritas and may very well not be making any sense. But if Miss Sophie posts something, you can make damn sure I will read it. She is a Goddess........and a friend.

I don't see either Dom or 'Trix as feminist or anti feminist. I'm sure Domina's of centuries past were some kind of fearfully awful specter.

Subs are subs because it is simply their zone. I understand exactly what you are saying. Many years ago, I heard an explanation about giving explanations:

Trying to describe alternative pleasure to a vanilla person is as easy and understandable as Neil Armstrong describing the Apollo missions to Genghis Khan. The only way to do it is to pull him off the horse and put their butt on the launchpad."

Never stop questioning, trying, learning, experimenting.

I have adopted the attitude that people in this community are the ones who have it "right". I totally agree with you. I do not understand or identify with most social or sexual norms! I think these norms are based on puritan ideals that have been shoved down our throats. You said something that struck a nerve. It's easier to go along with norms, because you do not have to think for yourself IMO. I tend to think that people who seek and desire fullfillment in the bdsm community are a lot more creative and highly intelligent. There are a lot of free thinkers here. We just need more to stimulate us, body and mind. From the outside looking in, I could see where a woman who has no first hand experience of being submissive could perceive it like your friend did. I am very new to this world, but I have wondered if kink can actually be theraputic. I have a strong interest in psychology. I can't wait to research if role playing and buiding trust can help someone overcome a past trauma. Overall, I think the bdsm community is far more "together" than "normal" people!

It is therapeutic and cathartic--to be accepted for who you are without judgement is a good thing.

I have adopted the attitude that people in this community are the ones who have it "right". I totally agree with you. I do not understand or identify with most social or sexual norms! I think these norms are based on puritan ideals that have been shoved down our throats. You said something that struck a nerve. It's easier to go along with norms, because you do not have to think for yourself IMO. I tend to think that people who seek and desire fullfillment in the bdsm community are a lot more creative and highly intelligent. There are a lot of free thinkers here. We just need more to stimulate us, body and mind. From the outside looking in, I could see where a woman who has no first hand experience of being submissive could perceive it like your friend did. I am very new to this world, but I have wondered if kink can actually be theraputic. I have a strong interest in psychology. I can't wait to research if role playing and buiding trust can help someone overcome a past trauma. Overall, I think the bdsm community is far more "together" than "normal" people! Originally Posted by BritneyBangs

Freed thinkers maybe? More creative and intelligent? Hmm..Mybe more like freed by non-judgmental acceptance (as BR said) to express themselves (ourselves). Our whole selves, not just the conventionally acceptable.

As for cathartic, oh yes. Some confront their fears, their past experiences and when it works, it is very healing. Sometimes experiences and traumas that have been repressed, accepted or "already dealt with/healed by conventional methods" (therapy) rear themselves.

It is true that there are psychologically damaged people practicing. People come to it for various reasons. And they are accepted for it. BDSM'ers are the best "I'm OK, You're OK." folks around.

When I play it is because I can, (have the time, donation, and desire). I like to switch but I am mostly sub as some folks around here can attest to. Sometimes the "need" to be spanked is very powerful... maybe it is the power exchange thing, maybe it is because I need stress relief (not just sexual but mental), What ever it is, I enjoy the play (always safe and consensual) and I always look to ensure my play partner has a fine time too.

It's one thing to play a certain way to get your boat floated, and distinctly another to treat people shabbily in other circumstances. The fact that I may find that receiving pain is a turn on, and ask you to inflict it (within limits, and with safety procedures that I insist you respect) does not mean that you can treat me badly in any other aspect of life. The same holds equally true for how men treat women, except (and its' a big 'except') that historically women have been restricted to second class status in various ways. But if we let that generalization dictate our individual actions in every detail, then we'll have surrendered basic personal freedoms to what seems to me an unacceptable extent.

In my view the tricky issue involves personal preference and consent. Might someone have issues from their past that prompt them to court abuse (this is directed at NO ONE on this board)? Or might she (or he) but in such serious financial difficulties now that they do things out of despiration at serious psychic costs to themselves? But so long as the recipient genuinely seems to enjoy the activity, who's to say it's wrong?

Miss Sophie Bella,

I appreciate the depth of thought you have put into this subject.

I think a person's predisposition will dictate to them what their thoughts and views will consist of in terms of choice and so on. Being that how they were raised, how their brain is wired, will be among other determining factors. Beyond the biological and learned influences, I know from experience that peers will have an influence that will often over ride a person's natural choice. Political Correctness, I think would be the manifestation of peer pressure.

I think one could speak intelligently about each point of view with conviction, no matter which position you identify with. I also think one who is opposed to an alternative lifestyle is most likely unable to see the happiness and/or pleasure received as a result of an alternative lifestyle for those who are participants, regardless of the station you find your own to be.

I personally find most alternative lifestyles to be completely normal from the stand point of mental health. While our society in general has become more accepting of our departures from the mainstream norm, or the religious right, either one. I would put forth the argument, that those trying to speak about the negatives are determining those negatives by over laying their own issues and hang ups, rather than seeing another relationship through the other person's eyes and from the other person's point of view.

I agree with you that as a rule kinky relationships do tend to have greater structure and more in-depth communication about each party's expectations and desires. Despite these details, in my experiences and my observations of the kinky community, no matter how a person identifies, those relationships while intense do seem to run their course faster than "vanilla" relationships. In my opinion, this is in part do to the level of compatibility to which one make the determination to proceed is based on. In other words, kinky people are looking to define themselves and other based on different expectations than vanilla folks are. Example, when picking a partner in the kinky world many look at physical appearance, kink preference, position/station, kinky experience and sex. While a successful longer term relationship of any type would need to take many more things into consideration, such as, finances, religion, desire for or toleration of children, career, and the more mundane. While I experienced kinky relationships that have taken these things into consideration and have been substantially more successful and longer term, most kinksters are about sex first and foremost and the details necessary for long term happiness later. Several months down the road they start hitting bumps that end up breaking the bonds of the relationship, not necessarily unlike vanilla marriages.

The ramifications or impressions on society of a Male or Female Dominant in terms of one or the other being better or worse than the other is negligible. I would suggest that as a rule Dominants are generally equal despite gender. Of course there are always exceptions, but most likely anyone who feels like there is an exception is most likely blinded by their own ego. The only true difference would be in terms of experience and skill. Time in a certain station is irrelevant, time does not necessarily make one who they are.

Great Topic

I would put forth the argument, that those trying to speak about the negatives are determining those negatives by over laying their own issues and hang ups, rather than seeing another relationship through the other person's eyes and from the other person's point of view.

I'd have to agree.

Nobody else seems willing to say it, so I will.

For someone labeled a submissive to derive emotional, mental and physical pleasure from an alternative situation requires above normal emotional, mental and physical strength. To submit fully is not a grace most can accomplish, much less derive pleasure from.

babee,

I am of the school that thinks and feels, that if you did not give it to me then you do not have the power to take it from me. And ones identity and ones sexuality is at the top of that list. Far be it the right of any human to judge me, as those in glass houses should not cast stones.

I agree with you.

'the life that is unexamined is not worth living' - Socrates

I would disagree with your friend tho, the reverse - female domination, is the opposite of a patriarchal society, not an extension. Both play on stereotypes, good and bad, of both sexes. Mostly bad tho. ;-)

Ok, I can't think of any 'good' stereotypes, no matter who's doming or subbing....

"Correlation between arousal and taboo"? There's not much sexuality that isn't taboo to some degree and sexual morality is so ingrained on us from a young age that just a marriage license can't undo it. There is the 'supply and demand' rule to consider. If it isn't taboo there's probably just more supply than demand.



Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain