Let us talk about secession

There is more chatter about the topic again. Do you think it is legal? Is it constitutional? Does it matter? How would you go about it? Do think there will come a time when it is necessary?

I need a link to overstand what your saying

Yes go for it, let us know when your leaving please.

I think this is a result of some talk of Texas wanting to secede and become it's own republic, again. IMHO, the right of secession comes from a line in the Declaration of Independence that states:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is no Constitutional provision for states to secede, and I am sure that any serious talk of secession would produce a strong response from the federal government - as in the takeover of the civilian authority by the military to remove the secessionists. Basically, it's just a bunch of talk that will go nowhere.

"Basically, it's just a bunch of talk that will go nowhere."

Just like this board LOL

If one examines the federalist papers, it seems there was a time when the states decided to band together, and 'hire' the Federal government to be their 'agent' when dealing on the international scene. Kind of like pro athletes banding together for a collective bargaining agreement.

Now the system we have now is completely reverse. States comply with federal mandates dealing with everything from seatbelts to toilets...just so they can get some of their citizen's money back in federal spending. Our current system would be completely foreign to those who originally opted for a federalized system...so the compact has already been broken...so I think legality is a moot point.

Will there be seccession? I have used the term 'soft succession'. States will refuse to comply with federal mandates, which are either unfunded or may become unfunded (medicaid and unemployment for example). We have already seen Monatana openly 'violate' federal firearms laws, and California violate federal drug use laws. The tipping point will come when the federal government no longer gives states as much as it takes. For example, Kansas taxpayers now pay more in federal taxes than they get back in the form of federal funding. This is a new phenomenon for Kansans, after having Bob Dole grease our skids for so long. What stops the state from telling its citizens to quit paying federal income taxes? We are too spineless here, but it has been seriously discussed in Texas. Would the federal government do anything? Probably not...and once one domino falls, other states will follow.

I think it is very possible. In a sense the first domino has already fallen, with uneven treatment under the new healthcare bill, in order to buy off some congressional votes. Its not a part of the final bill, but for a while Nebraska was gonna get treated differently on medicare...when I heard that, my first reaction was to wonder why the hell they get to opt out...those kind of games will tear this country apart faster than anything.

Okay, dirty dog needs more info...
Every now and then the talk of secession pops up on talk radio, the Internet, or cable TV. This time Shanin and Parks were talking about it on radio 980. Why they were talking about it...you'd have to ask them. However, it is an interesting topic and surrounded by lots of misinformation. Texas was not the center of the topic though, Arizona and Louisiana were.
The legal argument is, to put it simply, the US Constitution is a legal contract between the states and the created entity "the Federal Government". The states would provide support in various ways (taxes, obedience, manpower, etc) and the Fed would take care of "national" problems. The fed has not lived up to it's responsibilities when it comes to border control and some would say that those are grounds to make the contract null and void.
Is it legal to secede? The Constitution has a process by which a territory can become a state but no mechanism for leaving the nation. Does this make it illegal? Two of the founders (Thomas Jefferson and James Madison) have both recorded statements that indicate they believed states had a right to leave the union. Many statesmen prior to the Civil War believed that states could leave if their legislatures so wanted.
Did the outcome of the Civil War seal the deal? Slavery used to be legal, segregation used to be legal... a loss one time does not mean a loss forever in the eyes of the court.
Many people lacking imagination would think that secession would be about taking up arms against the FED. Not so. Secession would probably start out non violent and passive. A state would merely inform the Secretary of State that from henceforth that such and such state will no longer collect federal taxes, respond to federal orders, enforce federal mandates, and will from here on out repossess their sovereignty. All federal properties inside the state lines will returned to the state and any federal employees will be asked to depart. The National Guard will peacefully escort any military personnel to the state line without their equipment or weapons. These will revert to the control of the state. It becomes the problem of the Fed if things become violent.
It came out during the conversation (and it is on the Internet) that Arizona has already passed a law proclaiming that they will secede if the US Constitution is ignored or a plan is put in place to confiscate weapons.
During the 1995 government shut down, the governor of Arizona, opened the Grand Canyon National Park by forcing the locks on the buildings and equipment. The governor was Fife Symington.
There is so much more to research but now I leave to some to make uninformed comments.

John I listen to part of the broadcast yesterday. What I took from the discussion was that there was no vehicle to allow states to secede. The Civil war was the result of the southern states attempting to secede, but technically, they never left. If it were to happen, I think you could kiss the status of this great country goodbye. I think the people who think secession is the answer to their problems are like the teenager who thinks leaving home would be better than living with the parents. It's a cold cold world out there by yourself.

On the return of federal tax dollars to each state, did a quick search and found a site that listed the percents from 2005. I always thought that Alaska was the biggest welfare state when it came to federal dollars, but the chart showed New Mexico. Missouri got more, Kansas got less.

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/pu..._state_in_2005

No John dont need anymore information, because I could care less, its not going to happen no matter how much you might want it to.

Wow! What exactly is it that causes brains to seize up on this site!!! I find the legal and political discussion about secession interesting (probably because of the civil war classes). There is always some bozo who thinks because you analyze the different positions that you support them as well. What the hell happened to intellecual curiousity? Is is so hard to understand? I would really like an answer to that. Is it that hard to understand or are people so hard up for discussion that they have to do make believe so they can jump on someone.

KCJoe, if you were listening then you probably heard me on the air. I also theorized that if things got so bad then I would expect a multitude of states taking a walk. When that line could be crossed is for others to decide.

I am forced to add that the mindset is very much teenager. When I was in high school the neighborhood lowbrow saw that I was reading again. He saw the word Russian in a book about World War II and that was enough to send him around claiming I was a communist. He really was lowbrow (sloping forehead, unibrow, dim look in the eyes, and cruel enough to kill small animals for fun). Does that sound like anyone here?

This was all decided by the civil war. It would take another civil war to change it. Not likely.

Wow! What exactly is it that causes brains to seize up on this site!!! I find the legal and political discussion about secession interesting (probably because of the civil war classes). There is always some bozo who thinks because you analyze the different positions that you support them as well. What the hell happened to intellecual curiousity? Is is so hard to understand? I would really like an answer to that. Is it that hard to understand or are people so hard up for discussion that they have to do make believe so they can jump on someone.

KCJoe, if you were listening then you probably heard me on the air. I also theorized that if things got so bad then I would expect a multitude of states taking a walk. When that line could be crossed is for others to decide.

I am forced to add that the mindset is very much teenager. When I was in high school the neighborhood lowbrow saw that I was reading again. He saw the word Russian in a book about World War II and that was enough to send him around claiming I was a communist. He really was lowbrow (sloping forehead, unibrow, dim look in the eyes, and cruel enough to kill small animals for fun). Does that sound like anyone here? Originally Posted by john_galt

No actually JG, and again I am forced to spell it out for you, I could careless what you say about anything, I like many others have had my fill of you. If you want to know the truth, its people like you who are so fanatical about your right wing conservative ideology, just like those on this board who are so fanatical about their left wing ideology that you dont hear anything anyone else says, Its people like you who have polarized the poltitcal system to the point that valid and construction ideas are discarded immediately without reflection just because the person who put forth the idea has a D in front of their name. Its that kind of thinking that has pushed moderates like myself to the point we wish you and your counter parts would leave. So really take your partison, polarized idiotic bullshit somewhere else please.

KCJoe, if you were listening then you probably heard me on the air. I also theorized that if things got so bad then I would expect a multitude of states taking a walk. When that line could be crossed is for others to decide. Originally Posted by john_galt

I actually heard it because I like to listen to Landmine Billy when he calls into the show or when he's on the air. But as far as your call, I just passed it off as the rants of a lunatic. Seriously. And I didn't even know it was you.

...lowbrow (sloping forehead, unibrow, dim look in the eyes, and cruel enough to kill small animals for fun). Does that sound like anyone here? Originally Posted by john_galt

Yes it does. Listen, we don't need to know any more personal stuff about you, such as your education, naval rank and job, or about your deformities and your desires and willingness to harm animals. Leave that stuff out of the discussions.

As far as secession... I find it treasonous. I found it treasonous when Todd Palin (and I believe Sarah Palin as well) was a member of the Alaska group that favored secession. I did not like George Bush, but not once did it even cross my mind that secession was the answer to the problem. I always found the philosophy of "if you don't like it in this country, you can leave" ignorant. But, I would have to ask why someone wouldn't rather just sell their property and leave the country if they didn't like it so much that they would consider secession. I could understand complaining about the government and wanting change in the political theater, but to me secession is like cutting-and-running.

" lowbrow (sloping forehead, unibrow, dim look in the eyes, and cruel enough to kill small animals for fun). "

Damn dude what the fuck does your mom have to do with this.

" lowbrow (sloping forehead, unibrow, dim look in the eyes, and cruel enough to kill small animals for fun). "

Damn dude what the fuck does your mom have to do with this. Originally Posted by dirty dog

Don't you go talking about my Mama just because I look like the 3rd from the left in the evolutionary chart. LOL. I need to cite the above joke. I borrowed it from comedian Jay London of Last Comic Standing from a few years ago.