Organized Crime

First off, any one who thinks this industry is truly "under ground" in the U.S. of A. should drop his shovel and take a really close look at the Internet, the Yellow Pages, the alternate newspapers, etc.

And then drive up and down certain streets in any city, listen to certain CB (citizen radio) channels, go to busy truck stops, patronize Gentlemen's Clubs, etc.

Some may think that the old channels are gone, but not forgotten, and while the "Circuit" of madams in multiple cities may be diminished, it is still very very active to my personal knowledge.

Always been pimps/managers out there and always will, even in countries where the P is legalized and regulated.

All that said, I know personally dozens of providers who very much enjoy their role in society as a "sexual" or "sensual" therapist and know of more than a few who have been in the biz more than a few decades.

To my personal knowledge several providers who were in the biz for a planned period of years then retired with estates/nest eggs in the 4 to 6 hundred K range.

Personally, too, I know many many others who provided to support their chosen legitimate professional career educations and became licensed professionals (nursing, dentistry, engineering and other upscale professions) and who are still friends (not playmates) with more than a few hobbyists.

Too many women become providers for the wrong reason(s) which is very unfortunate, because providing can be a very professional thing, not licensed in the U.S., but quite often in foreign countries.

Just my dos centavos, of course.

Oh one last thing . Lizard king ,sex is not a inalienable right it's is earned either by conquest,love,or money Originally Posted by ncdiver069

With all due respect, you miss the point . . . narrowly. The right to pursue sex - fairly and honestly, whether it be by (non-violent) conquest, love, or money - is everyone's right. There is no guarantee of or right to "success". The same goes for just about anything else, as well. Human beings have free will and a corresponding right to exercise that free will (i.e., "do what you want"), so long as no-one else is negatively impacted in a tangible, real way. Take same sex marriage for example. The idea that it negatively impacts third parties is bullshit. Some folks may not like it, but that's not sufficient cause to prohibit it. We all have a fundamental inalienable right to do what we want to do, and that should certainly extend to being or patronizing a prostitute.

CK: By "underground", I meant illegal, not invisible. My experience in other nations where prostitution is legal is limited to several Western countries. Little that resembles what we recognize as "pimping" goes on there, as far as I can tell. There are people (male and female) who function more like true "managers" or agents, providing a benefit for agreed-upon compensation. Nothing wrong with that.

LK, right on brother, you get it. Most of the rhetoric that goes on in the US is because there are so many tight asses. Even when it looks like they're pimping it usually just boyfriends that are kind of in the way.
As much as I hate to make this political, we are really at a tipping point in this country. This discussion emphasizes why Gary Johnson needs to be In the debates.

sex is not a inalienable right it's is earned either by conquest,love,or money Originally Posted by ncdiver069

Off subject - this is a great quote. In this past month I have had 3 guys I've never met or talked to before emailing me to give them freebies. I am going to use this - thanks!

i think it should be legalized or decriminalized but its not going to solve trafficking/underage issues, etc

Yep, Nikki, you're right. There will always be sick freaks who take advantage of minors who are vulnerable because they are runaways or whatever. But I don't think decriminalization would hurt those who are victimized. I think criminalization or new end demand laws would only make the situation worse, driving the behavior further underground. Decriminalization will enable those situations to be exposed by those who may see it without fear of any backlash on themselves. There are already laws against kidnap and assault. To suggest its all part of an expanding organized crime network that requires new laws to fight against is ignoring the facts. That's just playing into the myth created by those who are anti sex and want to infantalize those adults who freely choose sex work.

"Organize", "protect", "legislate", "police".... All of these things suggest management of our lives by others. Seems to me generally speaking, that most people (myself included) can't manage their asses with both hands, and are even less equipped to manage the lives of others. Further, the best-intentioned of us are at any given point subject to fall to the darkest of evils in our own self-interest.

I went to AMP's for years. But one time near the end of those days, the very pretty and modest young girl I was with started weeping; very obviously didn't want to be there, very obviously in shame. I'm not the best looking guy in the hobby but I don't think I warrant tears. I went home seriously shaken up and had no choice but to confront that the girl was on some level being forced into service.

For myself, being in the hobby is hardly my proudest achievement. I have my rationalizations and reasons like all of us do; but none of those puts me in a great position to judge anybody. Not to say I don't deplore the realities of human trafficking, child slavery, etc; I simply never went to that AMP anymore, and soon after quit them altogether.

A last relevant insight: A psychiatrist whom I respect mentioned to me that she worked with several escorts in her practice. I asked her generally what seemed to drive them. She said they got into it for all sorts of reasons, but that most of them had a hard time leaving the money.

I can relate. Hell, I'd sell my ass if I thought I could get $5 for it. There's an old joke in West Texas:
"Please don't tell my parents I work in the Oil Field! They think I'm a piano player in a whorehouse."

At this point I only visit those I am confident are operating independently. Someone booking and screening for them ok. I even stay away if there is any hint of a bf around although he is likely just a slug as opposed to actually pimping her.
As for wanting to do something different to earn a living, who doesn't? 9 out of 10 of us would probably rather do something else day in day out. And we don't have flexible hours and unlimited vacation. I'm not saying its for everyone, like the young women in your story. But you also don't know the truth there either. I wouldn't assume she's being held against her will by some Asian gangsta.

thank you all for the intelligent discussion on this matter.

i no longer go to amps for this reason.

regarding independents, i have to ask if by seeing them i am encouraging their own self destruction. maybe they have an addiction to gambling, alcohol, shopping, drugs, or a combination thereof.
it also bega the question of what message this would send to my daughters or the future generation of women? that it is ok to put a price tag on their bodies and sell it? by paying for sex, i am condoning the act. i cannot imagine what i would do to a guy who would even think of paying my loved ones for sex. it is just plain wrong. Originally Posted by mrlovalova64

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Ok I have been super busy lately and am just now getting a chance to reply to your post above.

In reading your comments it seems you as well as many others have really bought into the media stereotyping of prostitutes.

Let's start with this statement you make: "regarding independents, i have to ask if by seeing them i am encouraging their own self destruction".

Your statement above implies that you think a woman having sex for money is causing the woman's self destruction in some way. How do you think may I ask is it causing her self destruction? It is a job a service just like any other and it would seem that your comments have a moral undertone that comes from religion. If you think it is morally wrong for a woman to have sex for money, that by the religious moral definition it is destructive because of all the reasons religion outlines concerning this act then that would explain your own conflict in having paid a prostitute or two and then having doubts. Sex work allows a woman the ability to run her own business, make a certain level of income she wouldn't otherwise be able to make. Just like any other profession it helps to pay the bills, and take care of family and if a lady is smart build a nest egg for retirement like anyone else.

The so called "destruction" you may be eluding too is more the affect of a society who totally criminalizes the act, admonishes, stigmatizes and stereotypes a woman who has practiced prostitution. In this puritanical country people continue to treat a prostitute as if she were some sort of victim (or even sub human), yet we brand her a whore and give her a criminal record if she is caught. She is forever scrutinized and labeled long after she may have left the trade should people find out. If she has a criminal record for prostituting then she almost can never find a job (that doesn't involve sex work), she gets stuck in it. Unless of course you want to count the job at Mc Donalds cleaning toilets, or the below minimum wage the parole officer and judge have assigned her too, most of which in my opinion are more demeaning and more destructive to her health.

Did you know in the state of Texas if a woman gets a prostitution record by law no landlord can rent to her? She has a hell of a time finding a place to live. Apartment landlords shy away from renting an apartment to a convicted prostitute. People don't want to hire her either, because no one wants to hire a "whore" or someone who they think might be (in their minds) sexually provocative. Just look at how a retired porn star was treated years ago when she was invited to read books to kindergarten kids. When the parents found out she was a retired porn star they went ape shit and called for the firing of some school officials for letting a "harlot" near their children, as if somehow these kids would catch her sexual promiscuity in some way or be tainted.

So how does this help a woman to become a "so called, productive, repentant whore of society"? I mean society has set it up where she cannot retire from the trade and set it up where she cannot live a normal life should she be branded with a criminal record. We carry on about how these women are victims yet we victimize them over and over again when they do try to get out of the trade. What we do in this country is asinine and counterproductive and only leads a woman right back into the trade even when she wants to retire. Look at the way the cops arrest a woman. They take all her money, everything she owns.. notify the landlord if she happens to have an in call in her apartment, if she owns a home they might even try to seize it because they may think she used her money from the criminal act to acquire it or pay the mortgage payments. She is right then and there made homeless, and destitute right off the bat. By the time she bails out on bond she is now in an even more precarious situation then before and starts taking risks trying to gain appointments to make up the money she lost, find a place to live, and pay off the fines and court costs. Effectively the cops have made her a moving target for the real predators.

Since most people including those who patronize prostitutes view a woman in this way she must be very discreet. In fact most women in the profession lead very lonely lives. Not many have friends or family they can turn to to talk about their day, or have anyone other than other sex workers to confide in. This can lead to some feeling completely isolated. So yes, destructive but not because of what she does for a living but how society and the law treat her.

You made other comments about women in the sex trade doing drugs implying that they only prostitute so they can continue a habit. This again is another media stereotype that you have so easily swallowed. Drugs and drug habits are not indicative of the sex work profession. Do you even realize how many business professionals are hooked on illegal substances, or how many nurses and doctors are addicted to prescription pain killers. I have personally known people in "elected positions" who partake in illegal substances. People from all walks of life get addicted to drugs and it isn't just in the sex work business. I have personally known many ladies in the sex work business who have never touched an illegal substance and rarely drink. The ones who do drugs would have had that propensity to do them anyway even if they were not in the sex trade business. So your implication that "they get hooked" then keep prostituting to do the drugs is exaggerated and untrue.
Do some women in the sex trade business use illicit drugs? Sure.. so do doctors, lawyers, CEO's , Judges, Nurses, Firefighters, Policemen. Are you going to tell these other people in those professions they should stop doing the work they do because you think they are doing it to earn the money to keep using their drugs? No.

You added a comment in another post about seeing a lady who had scars all on her arm. Indicating she hurt herself or tried to commit suicide as if maybe the profession lead to this. Did you ever ask her about her scars or were you just making assumptions again with a skewed lens? Many people in many professions can fall victim to depression, and many have mood disorders. Again this isn't indicative of the profession of sex work. I was in the sales and marketing for a big company for a very long time and watched a professional woman struggle with the pressures of the job and depression. She had a disorder that caused her to cut herself as a way to escape emotional pain. Mental illness is prevalent in our society and goes largely ignored and underfunded because of peoples misconceptions about mental illness. It can strike anyone in any profession in any social status.

In your comment Quote: "it also begs the question of what message this would send to my daughters or the future generation of women? that it is ok to put a price tag on their bodies and sell it?"

Have you been living in a tree somewhere? What do you think all the media advertisement with sex symbols and commercials use to sell products with half naked models is about? Women and girls have been getting this message for years that sex sells. We see it everyday in media, in the movies we watch. Sex does sell. Period. But it is our societies hang up about sex that is really the problem. If the sex trade were made legal and regulated I guarantee you that most women would not jump on that bandwagon and get into the business. Most women are repulsed by what prostitutes do. Most could not handle the business. Just like any profession you have to have the desire the ability to do it. Not everyone becomes a Nurse because not everyone wants to deal with sick people, blood, body fluids etc. Not everyone wants to become a Police officer either, because they wouldn't want to take the risk or harm to themselves that that profession has. Same with Firefighters, not everyone wants to be a Firefighter. It takes a unique person to be in those types of work, and it takes a unique person to be in the sex trade business. I find it silly that so many men and women in this society think that if sex work were made legal that somehow their daughters, mothers, nieces would just start doing it.. That somehow all women will want to be in it. This is just plain nonsense. Again, you and many others in this country have fallen into the trap of believing the crap that is on TV and all the hysteria related to sex work.

I am starting to think you are a poser here on this board honestly. Maybe you are covertly a religious nut who got onto these boards to just continue the propaganda about sex workers.

If you are really so concerned why don't you read up on this subject and educate yourself.

Here is some links to some very good reading material.
http://www.iswface.org/

Maggie Mcneil the Honest Courtesan

http://www.swopusa.org/