NATO has prevented gobbling

I sense posts are drifting from the topic in attempts to prove posters points.

Not a single NATO country has been gobbled up by Russia. Ukraine is gradually being gobbled up.

And Mr. Trump is okay with that.

read this.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contro...NATO_expansion


The American-West German position became the basis for negotiations on February 7–10, 1990 with the USSR,[12] which became key in the dispute over the existence of an agreement that followed years later.[12] During these negotiations, representatives of the United States and West Germany have repeatedly linked the unification of Germany with the limitation of NATO expansion.[23][24] So, on February 9, 1990, at a meeting with Shevardnadze, James Baker stated that the United States was striving for a united Germany that would remain "firmly tied to NATO," promising at the same time "iron guarantees that NATO jurisdiction or forces would not move eastward."[25] Later that day, at a meeting with Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, he acknowledged that "It is important for the Soviet Union and other European countries to have guarantees that if the United States maintains its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, there will be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction or military presence by a single inch in the eastern direction". and, in addition, he asked Gorbachev whether he would prefer a united Germany "outside NATO, completely independent, without American troops, or a united Germany that retains ties with NATO, but with a guarantee that, that the jurisdiction or NATO troops will not extend to the east of the current line." When Gorbachev replied that "the expansion of the NATO zone is unacceptable," Baker agreed with this. In response, the head of the Soviet state told Baker that "a lot of what you said seems realistic" and urged him to "think about it."[12][26][27][28] Baker, at a press conference in Moscow on the same day, made public the resulting exchange, saying that the United States proposed, in order to mitigate the concerns of "those who are east of Germany,"[29][12] to prevent the expansion of NATO forces in the eastern direction and stated that the unification of Germany, according to the US position, is hardly possible without "certain security guarantees" with regard to the advance of NATO forces or its operation to the east.[29] Later, in its February 13 press release sent to embassies, the US State Department indicated that "the Secretary of State made it clear that the US supports a united Germany in NATO, but is ready to ensure that NATO's military presence will not expand further to the east."[30][12



Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

First of all no agreements were put in writing that limited nato expansion. So Russia claiming that there was an oral agreement is what an invader is likely to say when justifying their actions.

Secondly have you heard of the Budapest Memorandum. Russia signed an agreement that among other things includes

* Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).[7]

* Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

* Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum


Looks like they have no compunction about breaking their word when it interferes with their own interests.

Truthfully the invasion of Ukraine is merely a matter of greed and fear. Aggression against Ukraine is an attempt by Putin to stifle internal unrest in Russia and to continue the Russian kleptocracy.

When countries break away from Russia’s influence towards the EU it requires a lot of anti corruption work and strengthening of the rule of law before EU membership is approved. Russia is ripe for revolution if too many people realize that other countries can do it.

This is a good article about the issue.

https://rogermontgomery.com/is-it-si...e-the-ukraine/

First of all no agreements were put in writing that limited nato expansion. So Russia claiming that there was an oral agreement is what an invader is likely to say when justifying their actions.

Secondly have you heard of the Budapest Memorandum. Russia signed an agreement that among other things includes

* Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).[7]

* Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

* Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum


Looks like they have no compunction about breaking their word when it interferes with their own interests.

Truthfully the invasion of Ukraine is merely a matter of greed and fear. Aggression against Ukraine is an attempt by Putin to stifle internal unrest in Russia and to continue the Russian kleptocracy.

When countries break away from Russia’s influence towards the EU it requires a lot of anti corruption work and strengthening of the rule of law before EU membership is approved. Russia is ripe for revolution if too many people realize that other countries can do it.

This is a good article about the issue.

https://rogermontgomery.com/is-it-si...e-the-ukraine/ Originally Posted by txdot-guy

your refusal to accept the culpability of NATO and the US and Ukraine in this conflict is obtuse and so pro USA as to be dangerous.

your refusal to accept the culpability of NATO and the US and Ukraine in this conflict is obtuse and so pro USA as to be dangerous. Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

You’ll have to school me as to your thinking. What exactly is the culpability of the US and NATO? Supporting our NATO allies? The entirety of Europe is opposed to Russian military action in Ukraine. It’s not just the US supporting Ukraine.

In fact the majority of the American people support Ukraine.

Americans’ support for Ukraine is the highest it has been in more than a year, despite continued disagreement among Republicans and Democrats about whether U.S. funding for military aid to the nation is too much, too little or appropriate.

Nearly half (48%) of all respondents to the latest University of Maryland Critical Issues Poll—fielded July 26-Aug. 1 to 1,510 Americans—said that the United States should support Ukraine’s defense from the Russian incursion “as long as it takes,” including 37% of Republicans and 63% of Democrats, up 12 percentage points for both parties since an April 2023 poll, the first of four on this topic.

https://today.umd.edu/umd-critical-i...-ukraine-jumps

NATO is doing its job by supporting Ukrainian resistance against Russian aggression. America is doing its job as a member of NATO.

You’ll have to school me as to your thinking. What exactly is the culpability of the US and NATO? Supporting our NATO allies? The entirety of Europe is opposed to Russian military action in Ukraine. It’s not just the US supporting Ukraine.

In fact the majority of the American people support Ukraine.

Americans’ support for Ukraine is the highest it has been in more than a year, despite continued disagreement among Republicans and Democrats about whether U.S. funding for military aid to the nation is too much, too little or appropriate.

Nearly half (48%) of all respondents to the latest University of Maryland Critical Issues Poll—fielded July 26-Aug. 1 to 1,510 Americans—said that the United States should support Ukraine’s defense from the Russian incursion “as long as it takes,” including 37% of Republicans and 63% of Democrats, up 12 percentage points for both parties since an April 2023 poll, the first of four on this topic.

https://today.umd.edu/umd-critical-i...-ukraine-jumps

NATO is doing its job by supporting Ukrainian resistance against Russian aggression. America is doing its job as a member of NATO. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

the majority? then you cite "nearly half"? your total acceptance of US imperialism is what is both frightening and dangerous to the point of you'd support a worthless corrupt Ukraine that would cause a nuclear war is appalling.


NATO has no obligation to Ukraine and neither does the US.


Trump got elected again in part with a end this war platform. are 76 million voters wrong? misguided? nope .. they just aren't liberal neocon warmongers.


FUCK UKRAINE

the majority? then you cite "nearly half"? your total acceptance of US imperialism is what is both frightening and dangerous to the point of you'd support a worthless corrupt Ukraine that would cause a nuclear war is appalling.


NATO has no obligation to Ukraine and neither does the US.


Trump got elected again in part with a end this war platform. are 76 million voters wrong? misguided? nope .. they just aren't liberal neocon warmongers.


FUCK UKRAINE Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

That half you’re talking about are in it till the end. There are more that support our funding for a lesser time period.

Those 76 million voters did not all vote for Trump to end our support for Ukraine nor to exit from NATO.

FUCK RUSSIA!

Ending wars of choice is one of the big reasons Trump won.

txdot-guy & TWK if you wish to continue the discussion of "who shot john" please do so some where else.
Examples would be by PM or in a Thread discussing what caused the invasion of the Ukraine.
This thread isn't the place