What kind of economy do you want?

This thread sure did take a turn! Originally Posted by Naomi4u

Yea it always turns to d3ck somehow, but it was not WTF's fault this time...lol.

Access to education is important to the country as a whole - it should be available to those in poor circumstances, but they should also repay the assistance given them (that's what happens in Ontario anyway). Why? Because it raises the country's lowest common denominator out of the gutter. When the masses include a huge section of ignorant, uneducated, inexperienced people, your politicians cater to a low bar. Meaningful Progress becomes phenomibally hard.

Personal opinion:

Access to medical help and education is a human right, it means being treated with dignity, even when all of lifes circumstances have conspired against you.

Having had been homeless with a mentally ill mother, I am grateful for the simple dignity the system afforded me, and opportunities presented to me by my government to live a better life.

I am a provider not because I am desperate, but because I chose it. Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

I disagree that education and health care are a human right if you tossed your life in the toilet. Why should other people foot the bill for someone who decides to be lazy or irresponsible? As I said, if you are a child, a senior, mentally or physically handicapped, this would not apply to you but I have no sympathy for laziness and people who think the world owes them something.

Why do you think when a liver transplant list is made, the people who have abused alcohol to get to that point are last? It's because there are children who never made that choice, that are also on that list. I am not saying I don't believe people deserve a second chance but a woman who keeps having kids just to get another check, is not what I would call handicapped. Her children deserve a better life for sure.

I have to disagree to some of what RK is saying. Part of the reason goods/widgets cost more is due to our gvmts/fed monetary policy. The rampant policies of print and spend and spend and borrow only devalues our currency and it is the very reason money today does not go as far as the money of past generations.

When the price of gold and/or commodities inflates, it is a hedge on the value of the dollar. With more dollars in circulation, you have to spend more to get the true value of the currency. Big and or small companies would do well to stop deficit spending even to expand, because they will always pass the interest they pay on loans to the consumer.

but it was not WTF's fault this time...lol. Originally Posted by London Rayne

Now there is a phrase that you don't hear very often.

So much to comment on I hardly know where to start. First, I think that Rudyard K's characterization of the left and right's view of wealth is almost cartoonish and highly inaccurate. I don't see the left "xpressing disdain for the wealthy" in the main. In fact, I think that the left wing these days in wealthier than those who vote right wing. But I think that those on the left are more acutely aware of 1) how much more skewed the distirbution of wealth has become in this country over the past 30 years; and 2) believes that a great deal of that has been driven by government policy. As a result of the second factor, they are more willing to use the power of the government to remedy the situation.

As for London's view that anybody other than the old, the handicapped, and children who are not a success have no one to blame but themselves, I find that notion laughable. The environment into which a person is born is incredibly important. It's not by my good works that I was born to two college educated parents (neither of which were the first in their family to go to college). It's not my hard work that cased me to be born with a good mind. It was completely unrelated to any effort on my part that my parents worked very hard to educate me at home from the ages of 0 - 6 to make sure that when I started to school, I would be way ahead of my classmates. The fact that I was born white and male also was to my good fortune. I had a huge leg up on 90% of the other kids before I had ever set foot in a school. All I had to do was not fuck it up.

What about those who were born to illiterate parents, who attended segregated schools, who were abused, or who had not positive role models, etc. It would be a very, very rare individual who would come from that melieu who could accomoplish what I have accomplished in my life. People who break their arms patting themselves on the back seem to forget these sorts of things. Government has a role to play in helping those people.

Excuses, excuses...what's new. Honey I have a sad story too, but I will refrain lol. I know so many abused children who still fend for THEMSELVES without any help, and in case you did not notice I did say anyone who was "physically or mentally" handicapped. I would include abandoned and abused people in that category. I was not born to college educated parents or born with a silver spoon in my mouth either, so don't go there.

Just call me a Republican I guess. You can't bi3ch about the ecomomy and in the same breath say that all the misfits deserve a hand out...a bit of a contradiction don't ya think? People who have NO means of taking care of themselves deserve help...that I agree with. Others who have chosen to piss their lives away are another story. Once you are 18 you are an adult, so if nothing is stopping you from being able to get a job and take care of yourself you have no excuse. You are totally wrong to assume that someone who did not have your upbringing can't do all you have done....look at all the men before us who suffered more than you or I ever will. Martin Luther King comes to mind. I am quite sure he too was abused and tormented, but look at the life he lived after that. Trials don't always make you weaker. For many, they make you stronger.

Why are illiterate parents making babies?

Why are illiterate parents making babies? Originally Posted by Naomi4u

Because they had the sense to believe their children could in fact make it in society, rather than take the easy way out. That I would support.

Because they had the sense to believe their children could in fact make it in society, rather than take the easy way out. That I would support. Originally Posted by London Rayne

Well.. I don't. If they want to bring a child into this world, they should be able to take care of the child
and not ask for government assistance.

I just wanted to get another face palm in.

The fact that I was born white and male also was to my good fortune. I had a huge leg up on 90% of the other kids before I had ever set foot in a school. All I had to do was not fuck it up. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Are you fucking kidding me?

So being black and not being born with a silver spoon is a handicap?

Just call me a Republican I guess. Originally Posted by London Rayne

I guess I'll just have to leave it at that. Up until now I refrained from challenging your overly broad "sucking the government" tit generalization.

Now, if you don't like government programs, attack them. But do not attack people who need the programs and are using them in a legal manner.

Your inference was that they are pond scum engaging in crime (stealing from the govmint) because they are lazy. Well, London, every govmint program requires you to continuously re-qualify for it. So, don't get on your high horse about those lazy so-and-sos on the govmint tit.

And for the most part, they do work. Clinton's "Welfare to Work" bill that he signed back in around, oh, 1995, put people on welfare on the path to work. So, you're stereotype about Welfare folks being too lazy to work is just that: a stereotype. They work, but it's not enough to make ends meet. Minimum wage is like that. Families whose bread winner is working for minimum have to fill the gap some how, and so they are on govmint assistance.

London, I read your posts. You're smarter than this. Just uneducated and you've believed every derogatory epithet you ever heard about Welfare. But you work at minimum for a year and see what your resources are like. You're luck in one respect: you've placed your religious values on the back burner so you can make good money as an escort. That kind of money allows you to live pretty high on the hog. But don't forget all your income from escorting is income derived from illegal activity. People with minimum wage jobs are engaging in legal activity, but the legal system doesn't allow them to make enough money for a living.

So, don't look down on them. They sometimes work a harder week than you do for a helluva lot less.

Charles as usual you missed the point. I believe in government programs for people who don't abuse the system...period! Do you know the percentage of people who actually get off welfare in less than 5 years to get a job? It's not very high I will say that. I know so many people who refuse to get out and work because sitting home and collecting that check is much easier. That's all I am going to say. When you get into my field and see all the bs associated with how people cheat the system, you might have a point. As of now, you don't know just how much a drain on the economy certain people are. If you want to give away your hard earned money to support people who can but don't want to work, so be it but don't tell me I have to.

People who sit home and get high all day while watching Beavis and Butthead, or women who keep having kids when they can't afford the ones they have, are not who I tend to feel sorry for, but please go ahead lol. Hard working people who just can't make ends meet I can appreciate and do believe they deserve some help, but I don't know any hard working people on Welfare. The system will not allow them to make over a certain amount and still be on it, so I don't know where you are getting your facts from. If the bill still says if you make x amount or more you have to get off Welfare, that's the freaking point. There is a cap on how much income you can have and still get assistance.

You got me on one thing though...I have so much respect for people who don't take the easy way out (so to speak), like I did. I know girls my age working 3 jobs to support their kids and never once thought of selling themselves. They are also NOT on any assistance program.

Why are illiterate parents making babies? Originally Posted by Naomi4u

Uh, because they don't know what does that. Or because they can't afford any of the prevention methods (especially the rhythm).

Well.. I don't. If they want to bring a child into this world, they should be able to take care of the child
and not ask for government assistance. Originally Posted by Naomi4u

And Naomi, unlike your previous question, you are educated, so you're not illiterate.

Under your theory, no one should get govmint assistance for any reason. Let's carry that out to our multinational corporations. Let's cancel all tax breaks for corporations, tax them at the highest possible rate, and make them pay for all the damage they do to society. Oh, excuse me, it's OK if we do that to a powerless poor person, but not to a rich Exxon. I get your point.

Under your theory, no one should get govmint assistance for any reason. Let's carry that out to our multinational corporations. Let's cancel all tax breaks for corporations, tax them at the highest possible rate, and make them pay for all the damage they do to society. Oh, excuse me, it's OK if we do that to a powerless poor person, but not to a rich Exxon. I get your point.

Government is spelled like this.

I'm sticking to what I said.

I didn't say anything about rich people. Did you not read my post Charlie boy?