- MrTex1959
- 11-22-2018, 08:32 PM
I to think that is a valid question. Not sure why some folks have to be soo rude.
- Redwood_Grove
- 11-22-2018, 10:11 PM
Simple solution: before you leave ask her if she'd be a good reference for you, and how she'd like others to get in contact with her.
tl;dr: there are legitimate reasons to not have references, there are practical problems adopting the tactic of requiring references, and doing so has limited benefits.
Asking for references sounds good in theory, but there are a few problems with it.
I don't know how much money you all (on the client side) make, but hobby-ing frequently enough to have enough ACTIVE providers, who I've seen RECENTLY enough, etc. to actually get two or three people who will respond to a request to vouch for me ... it isn't realistic for me to engage with the hobby that much.
Don't get me wrong: I do make money (good money, depending on your frame of reference), but I have other priorities too. Maybe all you other mongers are CEOs, or plan to die as soon as you stop working, etc., so if this hobby is important enough for you to do it often enough to have a deep bench, then good for you. For me, I have other interests, and I already pay for the internet ... and there are many FREE, interesting pictures / videos on the internet ... so ... if I cared enough I'm sure I could get several providers to be good references for me, but I don't care that much.
I'm not too grotesque, dangerous, weird, etc. to have two or three good references, I just don't do this frequently enough to have them. Or maybe I do, I don't know. I haven't seriously tried to check. Either way, I generally PASS when it comes to providers who REQUIRE references. The way this works is
1. you (the provider) are free to set whatever requirements you want to set for you to be willing to provide services
2. I (the client) am free to metaphorically say "no thanks" and see another provider, or no provider at all.
To any provider who requires references and still gets at least as many inquiries as she needs I say this: good for you. I'm glad you've found something that works well for you. High Five! Rock On! Thank you for soaking up enough demand so that other providers have enough availability to see me. Our paths will probably never cross, at least with us taking on the roles of provider / client, but I have no hatred towards you, I don't have "a chip on my shoulder," I'm not "butt hurt," etc. I have the same Respect for you that I have for any Mortal Traveler I encounter.
[ Here's an idea: the people who require clients to have others vouch for them should all get together and LOWER THEIR RATES so that hobbyist like me can afford to collect enough good references for you all :P That way, those that require references will have more leads, so everyone wins
]
Realistically, I'd probably need to find more than two or three providers who would vouch for me to get that many to actually respond. (I'm thinking two or three, but the same applies more or less to any minimum number):
- from a rational, selfish perspective (i.e., economics, game theory) providers don't have an incentive to tell their COMPETITORS that their past-and-maybe-future clients are easy to work with. If a client can't see someone new he'll likely go back to someone who's already seen him, so it is in her interest to tell her competitors that her client is dangerous, or at least not follow up with contacting the new provider. I don't seriously think people are sand-bagging their clients to others, and I think there are plenty of other, perfectly plausible, explanations for why a provider might not follow through with contacting another (with a positive OR negative review of the client).
- I'm sure many providers are very reliable and follow up with every request to give a good reference within a reasonable amount of time .. but, come on. If you're someone who reliably gives a fuck when it isn't your turn to give a fuck: THANK YOU. You're doing God's work. Some people become providers because, if they were that reliable then they would've gotten a civilian gig to begin with. Even if the hobby isn't a gig-of-last-resort for you, it is easy to forget, Real Life can get in the way, anxiety over giving a negative recommendation could lead to opting to not contact the other provider, and we're all busy so, if you're not getting paid to do something you don't want to do in-and-of its self, then why make it a priority?
- There could be many providers more than willing to give me glowing recommendations, but if they've changed their number, aren't logging in to this site or checking their hobby number, etc. they may never see my request. Or, at least not soon enough to make a difference.
- As the person asking for references, there is less of an incentive to pre-screen someone who might never actually make an appointment, or, if they have committed to an appointment, then there's a time limit for the other providers to provide a reference, and they might not respond in time for any number of reasons (see above). Maybe this isn't a problem for some people, but I generally don't schedule more than a day or two in advance because I might have to cancel if Real Life Things come up, and I don't like canceling because it isn't a nice thing to do to other people (and it could give me a bad reputation).
... so, I might need to ask, say, 10 providers to contact the "new" one for her (the "new" provider) to ACTUALLY GET the number of "he's good to go" responses that she wants. If you're the kind of hobbyist who is appealing enough, has enough time, has enough bank, etc. to have that many good references, then good for you, rock on dude.
(this is already too long)
Finally, if I were a dangerous person (I'm not), and I was seriously trying to do things that would hurt other people, then I'd intentionally cultivate a positive image so that I could get access to the victims I REALLY wanted. Don't worry, I'm not Hannibal Lecter. I'm so, SOOOOOO not like that. Being aware that I'm ACTUALLY a Big 'Ol Meanie is a HUGE TURN OFF for me. ACTING a ROLE during PLAY is a completely different situation. (Have I made myself clear?)
So, sure, requiring good references reduces your risk of of encountering the terrible people who are idiots. It doesn't do much to help you (the provider) avoid the terrible people who are non-idiots. And sure, most terrible people are idiots (most ALL PEOPLE are idiots), so insisting on good references first does have some benefits.
At the same time it is certain that doing so will also filter out some proportion of potential clients you'd actually be happy to work with (if you only knew who they were). It also does little to stop the Determined Terrible People, and encountering JUST ONE is one too many. We all make decisions (whether we're aware of them or not) that expose us to some amount of risk, and there's no One Right Answer.
Be kind, and be safe
tl;dr: there are legitimate reasons to not have references, there are practical problems adopting the tactic of requiring references, and doing so has limited benefits.
Asking for references sounds good in theory, but there are a few problems with it.
I don't know how much money you all (on the client side) make, but hobby-ing frequently enough to have enough ACTIVE providers, who I've seen RECENTLY enough, etc. to actually get two or three people who will respond to a request to vouch for me ... it isn't realistic for me to engage with the hobby that much.
Don't get me wrong: I do make money (good money, depending on your frame of reference), but I have other priorities too. Maybe all you other mongers are CEOs, or plan to die as soon as you stop working, etc., so if this hobby is important enough for you to do it often enough to have a deep bench, then good for you. For me, I have other interests, and I already pay for the internet ... and there are many FREE, interesting pictures / videos on the internet ... so ... if I cared enough I'm sure I could get several providers to be good references for me, but I don't care that much.
I'm not too grotesque, dangerous, weird, etc. to have two or three good references, I just don't do this frequently enough to have them. Or maybe I do, I don't know. I haven't seriously tried to check. Either way, I generally PASS when it comes to providers who REQUIRE references. The way this works is
1. you (the provider) are free to set whatever requirements you want to set for you to be willing to provide services
2. I (the client) am free to metaphorically say "no thanks" and see another provider, or no provider at all.
To any provider who requires references and still gets at least as many inquiries as she needs I say this: good for you. I'm glad you've found something that works well for you. High Five! Rock On! Thank you for soaking up enough demand so that other providers have enough availability to see me. Our paths will probably never cross, at least with us taking on the roles of provider / client, but I have no hatred towards you, I don't have "a chip on my shoulder," I'm not "butt hurt," etc. I have the same Respect for you that I have for any Mortal Traveler I encounter.
[ Here's an idea: the people who require clients to have others vouch for them should all get together and LOWER THEIR RATES so that hobbyist like me can afford to collect enough good references for you all :P That way, those that require references will have more leads, so everyone wins
]Realistically, I'd probably need to find more than two or three providers who would vouch for me to get that many to actually respond. (I'm thinking two or three, but the same applies more or less to any minimum number):
- from a rational, selfish perspective (i.e., economics, game theory) providers don't have an incentive to tell their COMPETITORS that their past-and-maybe-future clients are easy to work with. If a client can't see someone new he'll likely go back to someone who's already seen him, so it is in her interest to tell her competitors that her client is dangerous, or at least not follow up with contacting the new provider. I don't seriously think people are sand-bagging their clients to others, and I think there are plenty of other, perfectly plausible, explanations for why a provider might not follow through with contacting another (with a positive OR negative review of the client).
- I'm sure many providers are very reliable and follow up with every request to give a good reference within a reasonable amount of time .. but, come on. If you're someone who reliably gives a fuck when it isn't your turn to give a fuck: THANK YOU. You're doing God's work. Some people become providers because, if they were that reliable then they would've gotten a civilian gig to begin with. Even if the hobby isn't a gig-of-last-resort for you, it is easy to forget, Real Life can get in the way, anxiety over giving a negative recommendation could lead to opting to not contact the other provider, and we're all busy so, if you're not getting paid to do something you don't want to do in-and-of its self, then why make it a priority?
- There could be many providers more than willing to give me glowing recommendations, but if they've changed their number, aren't logging in to this site or checking their hobby number, etc. they may never see my request. Or, at least not soon enough to make a difference.
- As the person asking for references, there is less of an incentive to pre-screen someone who might never actually make an appointment, or, if they have committed to an appointment, then there's a time limit for the other providers to provide a reference, and they might not respond in time for any number of reasons (see above). Maybe this isn't a problem for some people, but I generally don't schedule more than a day or two in advance because I might have to cancel if Real Life Things come up, and I don't like canceling because it isn't a nice thing to do to other people (and it could give me a bad reputation).
... so, I might need to ask, say, 10 providers to contact the "new" one for her (the "new" provider) to ACTUALLY GET the number of "he's good to go" responses that she wants. If you're the kind of hobbyist who is appealing enough, has enough time, has enough bank, etc. to have that many good references, then good for you, rock on dude.
(this is already too long)
Finally, if I were a dangerous person (I'm not), and I was seriously trying to do things that would hurt other people, then I'd intentionally cultivate a positive image so that I could get access to the victims I REALLY wanted. Don't worry, I'm not Hannibal Lecter. I'm so, SOOOOOO not like that. Being aware that I'm ACTUALLY a Big 'Ol Meanie is a HUGE TURN OFF for me. ACTING a ROLE during PLAY is a completely different situation. (Have I made myself clear?)
So, sure, requiring good references reduces your risk of of encountering the terrible people who are idiots. It doesn't do much to help you (the provider) avoid the terrible people who are non-idiots. And sure, most terrible people are idiots (most ALL PEOPLE are idiots), so insisting on good references first does have some benefits.
At the same time it is certain that doing so will also filter out some proportion of potential clients you'd actually be happy to work with (if you only knew who they were). It also does little to stop the Determined Terrible People, and encountering JUST ONE is one too many. We all make decisions (whether we're aware of them or not) that expose us to some amount of risk, and there's no One Right Answer.
Be kind, and be safe
- sms918
- 11-23-2018, 10:52 AM
also more than once, I've had providers I used as a ref. call/text ask why didn't I just come see them instead of provider asking for ref.