No Indictment In New York

You know what goes too far?
A law making it illegal to sell "loosies"

Did you see the video?

Explain just how long a cop is supposed to stand there in front of the "incredible hulk" 2-3x's his size "diffusing" the "incredible hulk's arbitrary" refusal to turn around and put his hands behind is back.

1. until the incredible hulk grabs him and chokes him to death?
2. until the incredible hulk says fuck you and walks away?
3. until the incredible hulk reaches in his pocket and pulls a weapon?
4. until the incredible hulk reaches for the cop's weapon?
5. until a crowd forms surrounding the cop and separating him from the hulk?
6. etc., etc.

If you want cops to be lawyers and shrinks then pay for their schooling to get the credentials to be a lawyer and a shrink, then pay them $200 an hour being cross-trained in those professions ... and in New York that would be about $400 an hour.

With all due respect to the whiners and Monday morning quarterbacks ...

.............. it's easy while sitting on the bench to critique the game.

Cops have barely seconds to make a decision and act .... lawyers, shrinks, and internet junkies, along with politicians, have days, weeks, months, and even years to analyze it, critique, and formulate a "plan of action"!

What's the old saying about ... "moccasins" and "Indians"???? Originally Posted by LexusLover

1. yes I saw the video many times
2. it appears that the cop did not wait very long at all before taking him down

3. I never asked the cop to be a lawyer or shrink, IMO common sense and proper police training would be adequate to back off after the man says repeatedly (11) time that he can not breathe.

4. Did you see the coroners result, cause of death ?

5. I am not here discussing this to piss off anyone. I am here to honestly say that what happened was wrong. I do not need to quarterback that from an easy chair to see it.Had I been on scene and witnessed the same as video I would feel the same.

6. Do you think cops are above me and you ? Do you think they are some sort of saints or gods ? Have you ever experienced their treatment while in custody ? I will tell you this much, far too many cops are bullies and ego freaks.I have been pulled over by a black cop who tried to intimidate and flex his muscle just as well as the white ones. It is not a race thing. It is a cop thing. I

7. How many arrest have you experienced ? I have but one, with no previous accusations or offenses. Still I was treated like a career criminal from the very start. When I told the cop the cuffs were hurting me, he said "tuff shit" I suffered nerve damage in my right hand because of it. I was arrested for DWI. Does that warrant that kind of treatment ? No it does not. I cooperated fully and yet I was bullied then and harrased and tailed for a year until I moved from that town.

I conclude not all cops are abusive. Not all cops are bad. But many are full outright pricks. I know that Garner could have been handled differently. How about a taser or pepper spray ? I know he did not have to die over the smallest fraction of objection to arrest. Again as before, no weapon, no offensive posture, no escape attempt. Please go fight some real crime. Pushers providing to school kids, armed robbery, terrorism, rape, gangs anthing serious.We have terrorist here in our nation plotting to destroy our way of life and a man is killed over selling cigarettes illegally. Arrest him but dont kill him even if it were an accident

You know what goes too far?
A law making it illegal to sell "loosies" Originally Posted by boardman

Perhaps the protesters and media should be going after the City of New York for criminalizing just about everything in their never ending quest for more revenue.

They are the ones who place policeman in these situations by insisting that they enforce these "crimes".

I don't smoke, but from what I can gather, the punitive tax that New York has placed on a pack of smokes puts them out of reach for most poor people. So, a cottage industry has cropped up where individules sell single cigs on the street.

So, in their quest to "do good" by controlling people's lives, the New York authorities have created an underground market, and caused the death of a Black Man.

You know what goes too far?
A law making it illegal to sell "loosies" Originally Posted by boardman

Or selling soft drinks in to-go cups that are "too large"!

II know that Garner could have been handled differently.

How about a taser or pepper spray ? Originally Posted by rioseco

#1: One day we'll get to see the whole video .... or a video of the whole contact. Example: Rodney King. Probably the most ever show on the news was portions of an 18 minute segment. I've seen the whole video. Does anyone in here know what happened in the first part of the video? BTW: At the time of the Rodney King arrest California had an "environmental" ban on pepper spray and police could not use it. Not hair spray (go figure)!!!! Pepper spray!!!! FYI: There have been taser and pepper spray deaths.

#2: You don't have to come in here and piss anyone offense. The streets are filling with pissed off people. I am sufficiently familiar with arrests in this country (and outside of this country) to comment on them. I am also sufficiently familiar with police policies and procedures (and training) within this country to comment. (One reason I've seen the whole King video.)

#3: The sad part of all this hoopla is had the "incredible hulk" picked up the cop and crushed his skull against the wall ..... this thread was be over if it had ever begun ... the media wouldn't be saying shit ... and no one ... that is NO ONE ... would be protesting. And you wouldn't be asking the "incredible hulk" why didn't he just talk to the cop a little longer before he killed him.

#4: I will repeat it took me 5 to 10 x's as long to type this response as the officer had time to make a decision an act. Six months ago were you advocating arming school teachers?

We have a criminal justice system. It works. It is not perfect and mistakes are made. Usually the mistakes get a lot of press, but the positive doesn't.

By no means have I seen any stats on nice cops vs. "bullying" cops ... but based on my past experiences I would say close to 80-85%, if not higher, are honest, caring, and respectful individuals who want to do their job and go home with a clean uniform and all the rounds in their magazine they had when the left in the morning.

They have thankless and low paying jobs, but are expected to be supermen, shrinks, life savers, juvenile counselors, doctors, referees, lawyers, and peace keepers for a bunch of hostile, ungrateful, obnoxious, often intoxicated assholes who believe it is their God-given right to drink, drive drunk, and roar up and down the toll road like it's a Nascar Track while screaming ... and rob, assault, rape, and steal from those who just want to get by peacefully. 60 police officers on 9/11 didn't get to do that. 60!

Do you want to be a police officer? You seem to have that understanding and gentile personality you are seeking to "protect and serve" your community.

Please try to remember these:

1. Do not resist arrest, and comply immediately with the officer's orders.
2. Don't try to reach inside a patrol unit and take the officer's weapon.

Otherwise, it will not end well.

This is a good example of an old argument. The right has often asked the left if they are willing to kill to enforce their liberal policies. The response is usually something like, we would never kill anyone, we're the lefties who care. If someone refuses to comply with a liberal law what comes next? Some kind of censure in the form of a fine or warrant. If someone continues to refuse to comply? An arrest is next. If that person refuses to be arrested? Then force is used. What's next? The use of overwhelming force and sometimes lethal force is used. Someone either ends up injuried and in jail or dead.

This man Garner was breaking the law. What law? He was selling single cigarettes without the taxes being paid on them. How much is the tax on cigarettes in NYC? A pack of cigarettes (a pack!) costs about $13 of which most of that is taxes. Why so high? Because New York City decided to treat smokers like criminals and to take their money for social programs. Liberal programs. So he was breaking the law. Do you think the NYPD has time to intervene in every little infraction on the street? This one they took seriously because someone in authority decided that it was more serious of a crime than smoking a joint on the doorstep/ So the police responded in force. The man refused to be arrest for a stupid crime. A struggle began and he died. Do I think the cop intended to kill Garner? NO! Do I think he intentionally applied an illegal choke hold? I don't know but when I wrestled in school sometimes thing slip or don't get completed in a struggle and you end up with something not quite legal. Wrestling has a ref to protect both wrestlers, the police are not referees.

Getting back to the root; a man died because the NYPD was carrying out the demands of a liberal policy that had no victim and caused no harm (go argue about smoking somewhere else). There is your political indictment of liberalism for the day.

#1: One day we'll get to see the whole video .... or a video of the whole contact. Example: Rodney King. Probably the most ever show on the news was portions of an 18 minute segment. I've seen the whole video. Does anyone in here know what happened in the first part of the video? BTW: At the time of the Rodney King arrest California had an "environmental" ban on pepper spray and police could not use it. Not hair spray (go figure)!!!! Pepper spray!!!! FYI: There have been taser and pepper spray deaths.

#2: You don't have to come in here and piss anyone offense. The streets are filling with pissed off people. I am sufficiently familiar with arrests in this country (and outside of this country) to comment on them. I am also sufficiently familiar with police policies and procedures (and training) within this country to comment. (One reason I've seen the whole King video.)

#3: The sad part of all this hoopla is had the "incredible hulk" picked up the cop and crushed his skull against the wall ..... this thread was be over if it had ever begun ... the media wouldn't be saying shit ... and no one ... that is NO ONE ... would be protesting. And you wouldn't be asking the "incredible hulk" why didn't he just talk to the cop a little longer before he killed him.

#4: I will repeat it took me 5 to 10 x's as long to type this response as the officer had time to make a decision an act. Six months ago were you advocating arming school teachers?

We have a criminal justice system. It works. It is not perfect and mistakes are made. Usually the mistakes get a lot of press, but the positive doesn't.

By no means have I seen any stats on nice cops vs. "bullying" cops ... but based on my past experiences I would say close to 80-85%, if not higher, are honest, caring, and respectful individuals who want to do their job and go home with a clean uniform and all the rounds in their magazine they had when the left in the morning.

They have thankless and low paying jobs, but are expected to be supermen, shrinks, life savers, juvenile counselors, doctors, referees, lawyers, and peace keepers for a bunch of hostile, ungrateful, obnoxious, often intoxicated assholes who believe it is their God-given right to drink, drive drunk, and roar up and down the toll road like it's a Nascar Track while screaming ... and rob, assault, rape, and steal from those who just want to get by peacefully. 60 police officers on 9/11 didn't get to do that. 60!

Do you want to be a police officer? You seem to have that understanding and gentile personality you are seeking to "protect and serve" your community.

Please try to remember these:

1. Do not resist arrest, and comply immediately with the officer's orders.
2. Don't try to reach inside a patrol unit and take the officer's weapon.

Otherwise, it will not end well. Originally Posted by LexusLover

Look I have been respectful. I did not claim you were not well schooled in police matters. I simply ask what was your experience level while explaining my own..We both agree on much. I do not think most cops are bad, but some are. I even believe that these cops did not mean to kill Garner, but I still say it was over zealous techniques and poor decision making that led to this death. Garner broke the law, but did it warrant this ending ? I still say no.

Let us agree to disagree and recognize that we both agree politically on most other fronts. Have a good day.

Look I have been respectful. I did not claim you were not well schooled in police matters. I simply ask what was your experience level while explaining my own..We both agree on much. I do not think most cops are bad, but some are. I even believe that these cops did not mean to kill Garner, but I still say it was over zealous techniques and poor decision making that led to this death. Garner broke the law, but did it warrant this ending ? I still say no.

Let us agree to disagree and recognize that we both agree politically on most other fronts. Have a good day. Originally Posted by rioseco

I thought I was being respectful to you.

#1: Whatever Garner did it didn't justify killing him without due process.
#2: That is not the point, unfortunately.
#3: Had Garner cooperated with the police he would be alive. That's the point.
#4: Just like Brown. Had he cooperated with Wilson, he would be alive.

On the heels of the Brown fiasco it is more than just a little wearisome to see and hear people shifting the responsibility for their own actions to the actions of the police, and blaming the police for their demise when they would have never been in the predicament in the first place had they been doing something lawful and/or cooperated with the police when asked to comply.

Those same people don't like the judicial system, so now the want to change it so they can behave with impunity and the police can't do anything to them.

I suppose questioning whether one knows how to fuck because they don't post any reviews can be put on the same level of "schooling" in "police matters."

You have a nice day also.

First off the so called "Choke Hold" is not applied nor is it designed to cut off the airway of a person. It is designed to compress the carotid artery to minimize combativeness by reducing oxygen to the brain. If applied long enough a person will pass out. I doubt Mr. Garner died from the application of the choke hold in and of itself but rather the fact he was grossly overweight and the excessive exertion coupled with health problems may have been the true culprit of his demise. Furthermore when Garner said he couldn't breath he actually could, cause you can't speak when you are choking. He most likely was beginning to panic. The Officer involved wasn't trying to kill Garner nor did he do anything that would ordinarily cause death.

Jim Originally Posted by Mr MojoRisin

yeah, well if I hit a car from the back and the guy dies, even if I just barely tapped the guy's car, I killed him, right?
the cop should gone to jail

Im not sure why they cops attacked him at all, anyone know?
he wasnt gonna run he didnt have a gun, he had 4 cops all around him, why did they toss him on the ground , then sit on his face?

yeah, well if I hit a car from the back and the guy dies, even if I just barely tapped the guy's car, I killed him, right? Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

Maybe...maybe not.
Was it an accident that could reasonably be considered unavoidable? No you didn't kill him. You were involved in an accident that contributed to his death.
Were you just not paying attention? involuntary manslaughter?
Were you distracted by something of your own choosing? voluntary manslaughter?
Were you upset about something and driving aggressively because of it. Not sure where this would fall. Manslaughter perhaps?
Were you upset at the guy you hit and trying to prove something even if it was a tap? Murder?
Did you leave the house that morning with the intention of hitting someone but tried to avoid it at the last minute only tapping him? Premeditation?

FTR I think the cops were too aggressive too quickly...They intended to display a show of force. It went too far.
Beyond that I think it's a stupid fucking law.

yeah, well if I hit a car from the back and the guy dies, even if I just barely tapped the guy's car, I killed him, right?
the cop should gone to jail

Im not sure why they cops attacked him at all, anyone know?
he wasnt gonna run he didnt have a gun, he had 4 cops all around him, why did they toss him on the ground , then sit on his face? Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

In you're car accident scenario, if your car strikes another's vehicle from the rear and the other driver dies, would that be your intent for the other person to die? Most often it isn't. You wouldn't necessarily be charged criminally. There has to be specific intent to cause bodily harm or death for you to be criminally charged, or gross negligence on your part such as impairment from drugs or alcohol, or the vehicle you're driving is unsafe such as deficient braking system, steering malfunctions ect. Even though the NYPD Officer didn't face any criminal charges in Garner's death he still could face civil charges.
Jim

I believe the cop that applied the choke hold should be punished (suspended without pay) due to the fact that he broke the dept rules by using the choke hold. . . having said that, he likely did not know of the dudes health issues and that he would die so the grand jury probably made the right decision, I emphasize "probably" because I didn't see all the evidence they saw.

The coroner's report called it a homicide. That should be enough for an indictment. The New York protesters have a point. There should be a trial.

The coroner's report called it a homicide. That should be enough for an indictment. The New York protesters have a point. There should be a trial. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

The "coroner" has two choices (may be 3):
1. suicide
2. homicide
3. unknown (maybe the third).
4. "accidental" perhaps the 4th choice.

Just because it was #2, because it wasn't #1, doesn't make it a crime. The coroner is saying the death was the result of another person. FYI: There have been "coroner" or "medical examiner" reports that were "booked" as accidents and/or suicides and/or unknown that have been later changed and/or refuted by evidence the examiner did not have for various reasons.

I remember the agriculture department investigator YEARS ago who was shot in the Houston area and ruled a suicide by the medical examiner's office. He had two bullet holes in his back from a rifle that was recovered.

A recent example was the police officer who was charged with the death of his former wife from years ago that had been determined to be "accidental" at the time. Current events: Michael Brown. There were three of them.

The point is the "coroner's' opinion should not be the determination either way, and is only one piece of the puzzle. They can be wrong, and they don't determine "intent" of the actor or accused, and more importantly they don't identify the actor or accused.

It is "interesting" the take on grand juries generally with the old saying a grand jury will indict a "ham sandwich" and then when one doesn't all hell breaks loose. Juries are people....for the most part average, law abiding citizens, who were selected randomly for the same pool of people from which the trial jury would be selected.

Two cases just went to two different grand juries from two different parts of the country with similar results based on generally similar facts: police vs. citizen during a police contact in which the citizen failed to comply with the requests of the police involved. I suspect in both those cases there was no evidence that any officers involved left for work that day desiring to kill anyone or desiring to be found in a situation in which they had to use any kind of force on a citizen or violate any laws. On the other hand both cases involved citizens who headed out to violate specific laws that were crimes.

How many times on this board has one seen words similar to ... if you don't want any risk get out of the hobby. And how many times have we seen on this board hobbyists discussing carrying a weapon to meeting with a provider, and/or a provider talking about carrying a weapon to a meeting with a hobbyist. Do any of us "deserve" to die for paying for a piece of ass or getting paid for a piece of ass? No. But we see the makings of a death in the scenario. Grand jury or not.

Had Brown been killed by the shop owner he just robbed with force, there would hardly be a news story and probably not one thread. Had Garner been killed by some street thug trying to rob him or take his cigs, the same.

Our society ought not to allow our bias against one group or another, e.g. "pigs," to distort our perspective and create some double standard of behavior. What's the difference? Prejudice against police or prejudice against a group of people with similar race, cultural, or ethnic backgrounds. The result is the same.

Homicide is the taking of the life of another person by a person. It can be;

Justifiable homicide-you intended to kill another human being but circumstances like self defense or in the line of duty make it acceptable.
Accidental homicide-you did kill someone but there was no intent to cause death