The Converted or Subverted?

For me it's not visceral



Then I wasn't speaking of you but surely you know those who could be described that way. You know they exist, correct?



and I don't really hate either candidate..


As it should be. Leave hating somebody out of the equation and speak to policy differences which you do sparingly but I would say most of your complaints are personality complaints not policy which I'll underline for emphasis.



.I just remember the last four years and all the lies, the exaggerations of successes, there were many obvious successes the minimization of the bad things, something every single politician does now the minimization of corona to gain votes..as oppose to the left maximizing of Corina to gain votes? Any problem with that?.the boorish treatment of John McCain on that one I agree completely but will not with hold my vote because of it and some other instances of distasteful comments that others wouldn't have said or quickly would have apologized had they spoken them yet he stands steadfast afterwards....more personality complaints the fighting of the russia investigation UH, perhaps because he was called a traitor, a puppet of Putin. Think that had anything to do with him fighting the investigation since we now now after 3 plus years that he did not conspire with Russia? and the attitude that he's above the law and ethics and laws don't apply to him....the refusal to provide his tax filings before the election......the willingness to pardon people in his circle that keep their mouth shut....

All the campaign pledges to build the wall "and have mexico pay for it..


So you weren't against building the wall, you're just pissed that he said Mexico would pay for it and you believed that and then were disappointed when you realized it was just a boast that no reasonable person would believe?


.bring the jobs back.....


Which he has done and if given another 4 years will bring many more jobs back from China in manufacturing and pharmaceuticals.


drain the swamp...


Another political boast that you actually thought would happen? And you've been alive how long?


I knew those weren't going to happen given the logistics and working with other politicians but he needed to talk a real strong game to get the votes of the blue collar guys who build America and identify with those issues.


Soooo, you understand but still complain? Sorry but it is very clear to me that 99% of your complaints about Trump are personality complaints which is your right to do of course. I just don't feel it is productive when I could do the very same thing ( and have ) about Biden. I just don't think in the end, it serves us well to keep talking about personalities even though some hold it as a much higher priority than I do.


"The swamp" got drained alright....yeah, the one the Florida Gators play at but that was a corona thing that I won't blame any president for that...


Again, you express an understanding but still complain. I just don't see the reason in that.


.they still might play but I'm guessing for a month and at minimal stadium capacity.

It wouldn't surprise me if he leads his debates with the same campaign pledges he made last time, he's brazen and audacious enough to say just about anything anywhere at anytime.


Why wouldn't he lead with his accomplishments? Isn't that what all politicians do? This time, the opposition has given him a new path, 'Law and Order" which appear to be working quite well for him and why shouldn't it. While the economy is often talked about as the number one thing on most Americans minds, that's only when they feel safe. When Americans don't feel save, that safety issue shoots to the top of the list as it should. How ironic it will be if the reason Biden loses this election is because he was to much of a coward to protect the American people because calling out the cowards and criminals might hurt his chance at being elected. What a cowardly thing to do.


I voted for him in 2016, willing to overlook a lot of things i just wrote about, figuring to give a shrewd businessman a chance over a known kick the can down the road politician that was just going to swing from Obama's nutsack over Obamacare. It just so happened last time that I voted with the same side the electoral college picked....If Trump had won the popular vote and lost like Hillary did all you'd hear from Trump right now is how unfair the election process is, having been picked as a champion by the people and not having the chance to create all that changes that (he thinks) would have happened if he was elected. He'd be talking about having the wall built and jobs back and Washington cleaned up by now, but you guys obviously blew it by not inviting me to the party....you had your chance and now you'll suffer because I wasn't your president.

For me it has become the package deal and I'm tired of all the dogshit and drama, lies that's come out of his mouth and his actions, attitude, and boorish behavior that make him an embarrassment so much that I have a hard time admitting in public that I actually voted for the guy. I have to present an apology claiming parts I have written here to justify my choice back in 2016. Originally Posted by sexykarma

What you didn't say is that you will vote for Biden because Trump is a boastful, boorish, narcissist? And you're willing to put Biden and Bernie and AOC and BLM in charge of America because of his personality?


How about the difference in the economy Biden might bring against Trump? How about immigration? How about 4 trillion Biden wants to spend on climate change when nothing America does will mean squat if the rest of the world doesn't follow? How about school choice, de-funding the police, our China policy?


Do you have any opinions you would like to share on those MORE important issues IMHO?

regarding the electoral college/popular vote, if hillary won the electoral college, trump won the popular vote. I wouldn't complain. I wouldn't like it , but I'd accept it.

Neither, it's a delusion on your part. Originally Posted by Levianon17

Especially, the part about "talking above"!

I guess he thinks he's special when he's sitting on a toilet seat, also!

What you didn't say is that you will vote for Biden because Trump is a boastful, boorish, narcissist? And you're willing to put Biden and Bernie and AOC and BLM in charge of America because of his personality?


How about the difference in the economy Biden might bring against Trump? How about immigration? How about 4 trillion Biden wants to spend on climate change when nothing America does will mean squat if the rest of the world doesn't follow? How about school choice, de-funding the police, our China policy?


Do you have any opinions you would like to share on those MORE important issues IMHO? Originally Posted by HedonistForever

Yes, I know the visceral exist, just saying I'm not one of them.

Also I'm very anti-immigration, especially when there's always about a 3-4% unemployment rate and especially now since covid has increased that percentage. I knew Trump wasn't going to get the Mexicans to pay for the wall, that he'd end up asking us to pay for it. Some people I knew actually thought Trump would get the funds from Mexico through tariffs, I thought that was just an eye for an eye equation, after we taxed Mexico they'd simply tax us in return.

I seriously doubted the jobs would come back because automation cut a number of jobs out for good, and the companies that went overseas got a better tax rate, cheaper workforce, relaxed regulations from EPA and OSHA laws....the companies that left had no reason to return other than out of some sense of patriotism, they're corporations that are money motivated in nature.

Just like the amnesty programs offered to big business to bring the money back that's offshore...what's their incentive and what happens if the government decides to attack that wealth later on? Any reason for them to bring those billions of dollars back?

I was willing to give Trump a chance full well knowing that whatever pledges he made weren't going to happen, as is with most politicians unless they set the bar real low.

Neither candidate is of any interest to me, if Biden wants to spend trillions on climate change then everybody's just stuck with it if he gets elected because as in a different thread that I started a few days ago I have felt that electing people is a continuing useless tradition, that spending issues on welfare, military use, immigration issues need to be put on the ballot for a direct vote by the people. Change is not going to happen in an overbloated bureaucracy full of politically minded people that are clearly out of touch with their voter base.

I'm not voting for Biden or Trump, or anybody for that matter. If there were direct votes on issues on the ballot I would vote, I believe there would be record turnout at the polls if the people got a chance to speak out and actually make a policy happen instead of writing or speaking to some half-hearted "representive" politician that gets wrapped up in all the drama that goes on in Washington. Until that happens it's going to be the same thing year after year after year. And we're all fucked until then.

I have felt that electing people is a continuing useless tradition, that spending issues on welfare, military use, immigration issues need to be put on the ballot for a direct vote by the people. Change is not going to happen in an overbloated bureaucracy full of politically minded people that are clearly out of touch with their voter base. Originally Posted by sexykarma

what you're asking for is pure democracy. something the founding fathers did not want when they formed this republic. they feared mob rule by the masses.

if you're thinking of a referendum system like the way the Swiss do theirs, that might be something that needs to be looked at.


just recently, the swiss have put a referendum on withdrawing from the EU trade system if the swiss govt. can't get a deal on limiting immigration to swizterland.

SK - I undertand your frustration. we have an imperfect system of representative democracy.

A pure democracy - which you allude to - is unfortunately so cumbersome as to be unworkable.

Which is why we have elections. And - can vote out representatives if they do not represent us well and truly.

yes - the system is imperfect - but IMHO - better than anything else - and definitively better than marxist thugocracy as seen in China, russia, Venezuela, etc.



I urge you to Vote - exercise your Right under our Constitution - never give up that right. IMHO- One who chooses not to vote - abidcates and gives up the right to criticize the elected leaders. Not in reality - fortunately .

Still - vote for the candidate that best represents you - hold your nose if necessary!

Yes, I know the visceral exist, just saying I'm not one of them.

Also I'm very anti-immigration, especially when there's always about a 3-4% unemployment rate and especially now since covid has increased that percentage. I knew Trump wasn't going to get the Mexicans to pay for the wall, that he'd end up asking us to pay for it. Some people I knew actually thought Trump would get the funds from Mexico through tariffs, I thought that was just an eye for an eye equation, after we taxed Mexico they'd simply tax us in return.

I seriously doubted the jobs would come back because automation cut a number of jobs out for good, and the companies that went overseas got a better tax rate, cheaper workforce, relaxed regulations from EPA and OSHA laws....the companies that left had no reason to return other than out of some sense of patriotism, they're corporations that are money motivated in nature.

Just like the amnesty programs offered to big business to bring the money back that's offshore...what's their incentive and what happens if the government decides to attack that wealth later on? Any reason for them to bring those billions of dollars back?

I was willing to give Trump a chance full well knowing that whatever pledges he made weren't going to happen, as is with most politicians unless they set the bar real low.

Neither candidate is of any interest to me, if Biden wants to spend trillions on climate change then everybody's just stuck with it if he gets elected because as in a different thread that I started a few days ago I have felt that electing people is a continuing useless tradition, that spending issues on welfare, military use, immigration issues need to be put on the ballot for a direct vote by the people. Change is not going to happen in an overbloated bureaucracy full of politically minded people that are clearly out of touch with their voter base.

I'm not voting for Biden or Trump, or anybody for that matter. If there were direct votes on issues on the ballot I would vote, I believe there would be record turnout at the polls if the people got a chance to speak out and actually make a policy happen instead of writing or speaking to some half-hearted "representive" politician that gets wrapped up in all the drama that goes on in Washington. Until that happens it's going to be the same thing year after year after year. And we're all fucked until then. Originally Posted by sexykarma

Thank you for your honest assessment. If only all posters responded the way you did, we might actually be able to all talk to each other BUT, the difference in the candidates on the issues, is so stark that sitting this election out doesn't seem reasonable to me but I respect your right to take the position you have taken. Well written.

Yupper the system is imperfect - but IMHO - better than anything else - and definitively better than marxist thugocracy as seen in China, russia, Venezuela, etc.

Which is sadly what the dim-wits want so they can make mo money power control

[QUOTE=oeb11;1062180092]SK - I undertand your frustration. we have an imperfect system of representative democracy.

A pure democracy - which you allude to - is unfortunately so cumbersome as to be unworkable.

Which is why we have elections. And - can vote out representatives if they do not represent us well and truly.

yes - the system is imperfect - but IMHO - better than anything else - and definitively better than marxist thugocracy as seen in China, russia, Venezuela, etc.

The pure democracy I speak of is way more workable than the current system of voting for a person and hoping he makes the decisions the majority of the people want. As I've stated in other threads, most of the spending issues the public has had for decades goes away if there is a direct vote and our representatives act on that direct voting decision. It's not going to happen voting for some other person just because the last one failed, it just means the next guy is probably going to fail because he's just as out of touch with the wants of the taxpayer as the last string of so-called "representatives".

It works on the state levels when it comes to casinos, sports betting, weed.....other issues that go to the ballot and are directly decided...and it works on local levels with bond issues and local stuff like stadiums and waterparks....there's no reason it wouldn't work on a national scale.

In HF's example of Biden wanting to spend 4 trillion on global warming.....how can any one leader push for such a highly debatable, high expense issue without involving the taxpayer who's going to foot that bill, other than voting for the other guy? And if the other guy wants something equally outlandish then you're just stuck with a big bonfire of taxmoney going up in smoke? Put it to a direct vote for the taxpayers to decide.

I criticise the leadership because of the current system and the lack of representation, and irresponsibility they have, because of that system and those traits in them I have the right to criticise them regardless of whether I choose to vote or not, like myself and many others feel, these issues aren't going to go away by simply voting for some other guy that talks a big game and turns into another face in the crowd when elected. Voting won't change the reason WHY I complain.

I'm a very pragmatic person...I don't go out and vote for the lesser evil....Trump was the last president I voted for and the ONLY one I have ever voted for....Ross Perot was the only other candidate I ever felt had a chance to make a positive change but I believe he dropped out early and ran as an independent and he's not gonna win with like 5% of the vote so I didn't bother.

Has any candidate even had the balls to come out and tell the voters that if he gets elected he's going to place spending issues on the direct ballot for the national vote to decide? They don't even talk about doing this, so how is it even going to sniff being a reality?

My next vote will be on specific issues, town or state, whatever I feel strongly enough about.....I'm just totally done voting for the next blowhard either party puts out, touting them as the next savior of the USA. Voting on people to represent us clearly doesn't and hasn't worked, the people have to have a direct voice.

SK- i do agree that it is a shame that neither Party can put up a better candidate than we have from 2016 or today.
Vote your conscience.