Army "Birther" Facing Court Martial

A soldier is supposed to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, as well as obey the lawful orders of the President. If President Obama really is not a natural born citizen, then he would not be the legitimate President, and would be in violation of the Constitution. In that situation, I would argue that the soldier would be doing the right thing; however, as much as I dislike Obama, I think the whole issue is wishful thinking. I do give the officer props for having the courage of his convictions though.

Also, keep in mind that an officer receives authority directly from the President, whereas NCO's receive their authority from Congress. If Obama really is not a valid president, as dictated by the Constitution, then there would be problems.

Adrielle, not talking about a long term relationship. In this context that would be Michelle's problem. Originally Posted by john_galt

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to understand what's wrong about my analogy. He's been an American citizen for nearly 50 years, and a politician since the 90s. No one questioned his citizenship during that time period. That's a "long term relationship" essentially.

But then he becomes a presidential candidate and people start screaming about how he's not a natural born citizen, even though there's evidence like his birth certificate, which was released to the public, his birth notice in the Hawaii papers back in the 60s, and actual public officials verifying that the documentation is actually on file. And that would be the doorman in my analogy.

If you had people condemning you and telling you that you were a liar, after you gave them the evidence that they had asked for, would it not bother you at all?

The people who are trying to use his "questionable citizenship" in this manner are looking for a way out of their service. While the position of President is considered to be "Commander in Chief", it's a civilian position, not a military one. It's shameful that anyone who signs a contract to have such an important role would try to get out of that commitment for less then honorable reasons.

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to understand what's wrong about my analogy. He's been an American citizen for nearly 50 years, and a politician since the 90s. No one questioned his citizenship during that time period. That's a "long term relationship" essentially. Originally Posted by Adrielle

One does not have to be a "natural born U.S. citizen" in order to be a Senator.

One does not have to be a "natural born U.S. citizen" in order to be a Senator. Originally Posted by Philhelm

I know that. But they do have to be a citizen. There are 2 groups of thought though, that he is a citizen, just not natural born, and the other that he was born and raised in Kenya and not a US citizen of any kind.

Phillem is right. There is no qualification to be a natural born citizen in any other position save POTUS or VP.

For your example; suppose a man married a woman with children and for years they lived together off and on. They do not live in a common law marriage state. The woman dies after 10 years and the husband decides that he will allow none of the estate to go to his wife's children. At the last second another woman comes forward with a marriage license that proves the husband was and is still married to this woman. The marriage to the woman with children is invalid from the git-go and the husband has no claim on the estate since he was never married to the woman.

I know that. But they do have to be a citizen. There are 2 groups of thought though, that he is a citizen, just not natural born, and the other that he was born and raised in Kenya and not a US citizen of any kind. Originally Posted by Adrielle

Well, the latter scenario seems even less likely than the former, but if that were the case, then even his position in the Senate would be illegitimate. I don't have an answer for you, other than that I hope Obama is one and done. But even if McCain had won, the U.S. would generally continue on with its agenda. I'm of the opinion that the Republicans are only slightly better than the Democrats, but are essentially the same party (hence my avatar).

As far as the officer, if Obama really is not Constitutionally eligable, then I would argue that he would be doing the right thing by ignoring orders, since in this scenario, the CinC would be illegitimate. Also, as an officer, he receives his authority from the president, so the implication would be that his authority as an officer would be nullified if obeying a false president. Furthermore, he'd be violating his oath to support and defend the Constitution, by obeying an illegitimate president. He's on a fool's errand, but I do respect the fact that he possesses the courage of his convictions. Hopefully he doesn't get raped in Leavenworth.

Ron Paul 2012!

I didn't dispute the fact that to be Pres or VP you have to be naturally born. In fact, I agreed with it, I know the eligibility requirements to be a politician.

My first post was essentially a response to your post about calling an officer names for being asked to see ID. All I simply asked, which is why I used my analogy to illustrate my point, was whether you can honestly say you would be completely okay with being badgered to prove yourself, especially after you've already indulged the naysayers. Who knows, maybe I'm just hot headed, but that would piss me off.

That is kind of the point Adrielle, Obama has never produced the long form birth certificate. To use your analogy someone has used their driver's license to obtain access to a bar even though they are aware a typo occurred which shows them to be a year older than they truly are. To put numbers to it; you know you were born in 1990 but your official license says 1988. For 11 months you've been coming to this bar and then one night someone from the ATF is waiting for you. They've been tipped off by someone who doesn't like you that you are underage. You whip out your license and the hard ass says I need to see your birth certificate. You cannot use the defense that you've been going to the same bar for almost a year without a problem because you are underage and not allowed in the bar.
It doesn't matter what went on before with Obama, what matters is now.

Okay, you're dodging my question.

I'm not going to argue with out whether he is or isn't a citizen. That wasn't my intention when I posted in this thread.

My intention was to see if you'd react/feel the same way if put in the same situation. You essentially said that an individual would be wrong for not being completely okay with repeatedly identifying themselves. All I did was argue that many people would be equally pissed. I'm not a fan of hypocrites (which I'm NOT saying that you are, just trying to explain my curiosity), so whenever someone says that they'd react one way and condemn someone for feeling differently, I'm always interested to see if what they say actually matches up with what they would actually do. For example, when I was a kid I had a friend who, in her mind, thought she was the toughest person on the planet. Whenever someone said anything to her, her immediate response was something along the lines of "Shut up or I'll punch you in the face." Funny enough, when someone actually shut her down and tried to stand toe to toe with her, she ran away. And that's why I posed the question to being with.

I feel one way, and you another. That's fine.

That's a wrap for me, I need some sleep. Good night.

When you wake up in the morning; I have to point out that this is not the first deployment to Afghanistan for this officer so he is not avoiding danger. I was in the Navy and it would be very unlikely that I would ever talk to the president but if I was approached by a naval Captain who ordered me to do some task and during that task I became very suspicious that the officer was a fake. In fact any reasonable person would become suspicious of this man. In retrospect I would be liable for anything that happened from me obeying his orders. Their are a number of people who are unconvinced that Obama is constitutionally qualified to be president. That is their right and so now this one officer is putting his ass and freedom on the line. Whatever the outcome, you have to respect his cojones.

Military personnel are not supposed to obey lawful orders. Originally Posted by john_galt

Awesome post, John.

All other presidential candidates have proven that they are constitutionally eligible to be president except for one person; Barack Obama. Originally Posted by john_galt

False. John McCain, for one, has not/cannot prove that he was a natural-born citizen. See: Insular Cases
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us.../11mccain.html

The short form only acknowleges that the child was seen and truly exists. It does not prove place of birth or date of birth. Originally Posted by john_galt

Why didn't you use the proper name of the short form? The Certification of Live Birth was okay'd by Dr. Chiyome Fukino (director, Hawaii State Dept. of Health). He stated that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born citizen.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp

Then read about Barbara Nelson. Is she a liar too? How many people do you believe are involved in this conspiracy. (wink!) I think anyone would remember a women with the same name as her father giving birth.
...and why aren't Birthers making fun of Barry's mom's name? Stanley!?! Are you kidding me? Stanley???

The other problem is that Barack's parents were not legally married since BO senior still had a wife in Africa when he married Baracks mother. In 1961 a child born assumed the nationality of his guardian parent if they had reached the age of maturity and had lived in the U.S. for at least five years. If BO could only claim his mother (since there was no legal marriage) she was too young to apply her citizenship to him. She was only 19 and had only reached the age of maturity for one years and not five. If BO claims his acknowleged father BO senior then he becomes a British colonial citizen. Originally Posted by john_galt

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp

The "16 years old + five years law" only applies if he was born OUTSIDE the US. He wasn't. He was born in the State of Hawaii. Even if both of Obama's parents were non-U.S. citizens and just arrived in Hawaii right before his birth...he's still a natural born citizen. Married or not, it doesn't matter if he was born in Hawaii.

You have to prove that Obama was born outside of the U.S. before there is a problem. Let's look at the scoreboard...

NORMAL PEOPLE: Obama has provided the Certification of Live Birth. (twice!) ALL of the Hawaiian state officials involved back that up, including Republicans. There are newspaper articles announcing the birth in 1961 and there is at least one witness remembers discussing Barack's birth on the day he was born because it was noteworthy.

BIRTHERS: They haven't proven a thing except that they get really excited when fake Kenyan birth certificates pop up. Then they get even more outraged (!!!!) when they get Snoped by a lone Snoper doing it for the lulz.

(PAY ATTENTION!) Originally Posted by john_galt

Done.