Greece is fucked up. They dont pay their taxes because they do not like them being so high. They are a bunch of dumb asses.Ancient Greece was the birthplace of western civilization. It's sad to see Greece disintegrate.
They will be out of the eurozone before long, will start printing their own money, inflation will sky rocket and the people will be even more fucked. Socialism at its best. Originally Posted by The2Dogs
- joe bloe
- 05-20-2012, 12:38 AM
- Texas Contrarian
- 05-20-2012, 06:40 PM
Of course Greece will go into further decline if austerity is imposed, since the only thing that's propped up its unproductive economy for the last dozen years has been the ability to borrow heavily at low interest rates and in an externally strengthened currency.
For all intents and purposes, they defaulted some time ago. The only question is what final form the default will take.
Since the public debt/GDP ratio is about 160%, there's no way out. Anti-austerity measures involve simply throwing good money after bad, and northern Europeans and others have little appetite for that. German voters are very resentful, since they generally have to work 10-12 years longer than Greeks to qualify for anything resembling full pension benefits.
This is nothing new for Greece; they've been doing such things fairly regularly for a long time. In days gone by, they would just go through a depression, devalue the drachma, and start over. But that course is obviously not possible since they joined the eurozone. The big question now is whether they will soon leave the euro. In the minds of many analysts, it's a question of when, not if.
It has now been clear that Greek published budgets have been frauds for a long time. They might as well have hired all the Enron senior accountants who didn't go to prison.
Check this:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...676634,00.html
For all intents and purposes, they defaulted some time ago. The only question is what final form the default will take.
Since the public debt/GDP ratio is about 160%, there's no way out. Anti-austerity measures involve simply throwing good money after bad, and northern Europeans and others have little appetite for that. German voters are very resentful, since they generally have to work 10-12 years longer than Greeks to qualify for anything resembling full pension benefits.
This is nothing new for Greece; they've been doing such things fairly regularly for a long time. In days gone by, they would just go through a depression, devalue the drachma, and start over. But that course is obviously not possible since they joined the eurozone. The big question now is whether they will soon leave the euro. In the minds of many analysts, it's a question of when, not if.
It has now been clear that Greek published budgets have been frauds for a long time. They might as well have hired all the Enron senior accountants who didn't go to prison.
Check this:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...676634,00.html
- Fast Gunn
- 05-20-2012, 07:27 PM
I suppose it is quite possible for an entire country to be corrupt, but is that really the case for Greece or did they just screw up on a bigger scale than even J. P. Morgan?
If you condemn stupidity then who would be left to run the world, such as it is?
Publicly, everyone seems to be saying that Greece should not be thrown out of the union, but it does seem to be headed out.
The larger question is would the European Union become stronger when the weaker members are culled out or would it become weaker when it starts to disintegrate little by little?
. . . A weak Europe would be bad for the world economy and that in turn would be bad news for the United States.
If you condemn stupidity then who would be left to run the world, such as it is?
Publicly, everyone seems to be saying that Greece should not be thrown out of the union, but it does seem to be headed out.
The larger question is would the European Union become stronger when the weaker members are culled out or would it become weaker when it starts to disintegrate little by little?
. . . A weak Europe would be bad for the world economy and that in turn would be bad news for the United States.
- nwarounder
- 05-20-2012, 07:43 PM
No, what is really, really sad is WE have so much corruption. WE have a very corrupt tax office and corrupt officials who got into office.
- joe bloe
- 05-20-2012, 07:50 PM
Of course Greece will go into further decline if austerity is imposed, since the only thing that's propped up its unproductive economy for the last dozen years has been the ability to borrow heavily at low interest rates and in an externally strengthened currency.
For all intents and purposes, they defaulted some time ago. The only question is what final form the default will take.
Since the public debt/GDP ratio is about 160%, there's no way out. Anti-austerity measures involve simply throwing good money after bad, and northern Europeans and others have little appetite for that. German voters are very resentful, since they generally have to work 10-12 years longer than Greeks to qualify for anything resembling full pension benefits.
This is nothing new for Greece; they've been doing such things fairly regularly for a long time. In days gone by, they would just go through a depression, devalue the drachma, and start over. But that course is obviously not possible since they joined the eurozone. The big question now is whether they will soon leave the euro. In the minds of many analysts, it's a question of when, not if.
It has now been clear that Greek published budgets have been frauds for a long time. They might as well have hired all the Enron senior accountants who didn't go to prison.
Check this:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...676634,00.html Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight
If Greece is ever going to get it's economic house in order, they're going to have to cut way back on spending for a generation. Greece didn't get into this mess over night and they're not going to get out of it over night. Pumping more borrowed money into the economy just postpones the inevitable crash and makes the day of reckoning more severe when it finally arives.
I hope Greece's predicament is not an indication of how we're going to deal with our deficit and debt. Clearly, Obama wants to take us down the same road that Greece has traveled. A wise man doesn't go into a coal mine that the canary died in.
- Guest123018-4
- 05-20-2012, 07:53 PM
Is JP Morgan a country?
Greece is fucked and they fucked themselves in the ass or Greeked themselves.
They deserve what they get.
Greece is fucked and they fucked themselves in the ass or Greeked themselves.
They deserve what they get.
- nwarounder
- 05-20-2012, 08:09 PM
- Fast Gunn
- 05-20-2012, 08:20 PM
Of course, J.P. Morgan is not a country.
The point is that they made a very big mistake.
The important question is should you condemn countries for making mistakes or should you try to help them out of the hole they are in?
You'd better pray that you are not judged as harshly as you judge others.
The world will tear you a new one very quick if you insist on being a dick.
. . . You should remember that we live in a global economy where every country is interconnected.
The point is that they made a very big mistake.
The important question is should you condemn countries for making mistakes or should you try to help them out of the hole they are in?
You'd better pray that you are not judged as harshly as you judge others.
The world will tear you a new one very quick if you insist on being a dick.
. . . You should remember that we live in a global economy where every country is interconnected.
Is JP Morgan a country?
Greece is fucked and they fucked themselves in the ass or Greeked themselves.
They deserve what they get. Originally Posted by The2Dogs
- joe bloe
- 05-20-2012, 08:45 PM
Of course, J.P. Morgan is not a country.So are you ready for one world government? It sounds to me like that would be right up your alley. We can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
The point is that they made a very big mistake.
The important question is should you condemn countries for making mistakes or should you try to help them out of the hole they are in?
You'd better pray that you are not judged as harshly as you judge others.
The world will tear you a new one very quick if you insist on being a dick.
. . . You should remember that we live in a global economy where every country is interconnected. Originally Posted by Fast Gunn
Greece can't be helped until they acknowledge that their fiscal policies have been unsustainable for decades. Without assurance that Greece will reform it's policies, bailing them out is just throwing money away. It's like lending money to a junkie; he's not going to buy food and clothing.
Greece needs an intervention. Unfortunately, almost all of Greece's "relatives" are bankrupt social welfare states too. Germany is the only one in the position of practicing economic tough love in Europe. If Germany is smart, they'll tell Greece, Portugal, and Spain to go pound sand when they come asking for hand outs.
- TheDaliLama
- 05-21-2012, 03:44 PM
Austerity = Chemotherapy
- joe bloe
- 05-21-2012, 05:08 PM
- TheDaliLama
- 05-21-2012, 05:35 PM
Yep...take the pill for the pain and then die.
- Texas Contrarian
- 05-21-2012, 06:39 PM
The tragedy that is Greek democracy has entered its final act. Nothing can save the Greek government. Nothing can save the Greek banks. Nothing can keep Greece on the euro. But the Greek people still have the power to save themselves. Last summer, I penned a column in Forbes titled "Give Greece What It Deserves: Communism." It generated an outpouring of bile from offended Greeks, many of whom blamed everyone but themselves for their troubles. The most recent Greek elections ignited another round of hateful accusations, along with the question, "What would you do to solve the problem?" Here is my answer.
1) Do not look to the government for solutions. As a certain wise president once said, government is the problem. Your best hope is for it to remain hobbled, impotent, and divided. Your worst nightmares will come true if angry Greek voters hand power to extremists of either the left or right.
2) Get your money out of Greek banks NOW. Don't be the last fool whose euro life savings are decimated as they are forcibly converted into drachmas.
3) Stick with the euro after the government brings back the drachma. Let them pay civil servants with drachmas. Let them pay government pensions with drachmas. Let government owned companies pay employees with drachmas. Let them collect taxes in drachmas, and pay bondholders the same way. But as much as possible, run your lives and businesses with euros, dollars, or sterling, which will continue to circulate. When it comes time to pay your taxes, any genuine reserve currency will buy drachmas by the bushel basket.
4) Go on strike against all labor laws and business regulations. If you want to start a business, just do it. Hire employees at will. Pay them whatever the market will bear, ask them to work for as many hours as you mutually agree, and fire them if they don't produce. Pay no attention to any rules and regulations beyond the law of supply and demand. Make the customer king. If Greeks who still know how to work don't get a healthy black market up and running quickly, the whole country will starve.
5) Tar and feather government officials that ask for a bribe or try to shut down your business. Smashing Starbucks windows is idiotic. Direct those inclined to violence to vent their rage at the source of your country's misery. Make a few examples out of government leeches and the rest will leave you alone.
6) Do not let union thugs intimidate you. The Greeks are courageous people, with a long history of resisting oppression. But they are not so good at figuring out who their real oppressors are. If you start or run a business and are threatened by unions because you refuse to accede to their demands, fight back. They are largely to blame for the economic destruction of your country and have no right to tell you how to live and work.
7) Be nice to tourists. Let's face it; Greece is not an export powerhouse. But you can offer the world a nice vacation. Don't spoil it for anyone brave enough to visit. While German taxpayers may be tired of lending you money, German tourists looking for a bargain can fill the void. And instead of their euros getting swallowed by crooked bankers and politicians, you can put them directly into your own pockets.
8) Take care of your own family. Every extended family in Greece has members living off the fat of the government. When that river of largess runs dry, they will come to you for help. Feed their mouths but not their anger, as their cushy government jobs-and the sense of entitlement they create-were a huge part of the problem. If they are still young enough to work, help them become productive by saying goodbye to life on the government payroll.
9) Accept responsibility. The source of your misery is you. You got the governments you voted for. You got the public sector jobs you thought you deserved. You got the bloated pensions you demanded. Don't blame the idiots who were stupid enough to lend you money and finally decided that enough is enough. No one cares about the glory of your ancestors 2,000 years ago. If you want to live in today's world you cannot consume more than you produce.
10) Get out if you can. If the opportunity arises, do what millions of other Greeks have done over the generations, including my grandparents. Vote with your feet. Greeks are incredibly successful and hard working everywhere except in Greece. It's not your genes that are holding you back; it's your political culture.
Democracy becomes a cancer if its powers are not limited. That is because a sustainable democracy requires not just votes, but also governing institutions that protect the rights of minorities against predatory majorities. The disease of voters voting themselves benefits at someone else's expense has infected much of the world. Greece provides a stark example of what happens when a government runs out of other people's money. If the rest of us don't take heed while there is still time, we will all end up like you.
Good luck. As my yiayia used to say "Συν Αθηνά και χείρα κίνει" (which loosely translated means, "God helps those who help themselves.") OK, so maybe it was Ben Franklin who said it. But the advice is still timeless.
1) Do not look to the government for solutions. As a certain wise president once said, government is the problem. Your best hope is for it to remain hobbled, impotent, and divided. Your worst nightmares will come true if angry Greek voters hand power to extremists of either the left or right.
2) Get your money out of Greek banks NOW. Don't be the last fool whose euro life savings are decimated as they are forcibly converted into drachmas.
3) Stick with the euro after the government brings back the drachma. Let them pay civil servants with drachmas. Let them pay government pensions with drachmas. Let government owned companies pay employees with drachmas. Let them collect taxes in drachmas, and pay bondholders the same way. But as much as possible, run your lives and businesses with euros, dollars, or sterling, which will continue to circulate. When it comes time to pay your taxes, any genuine reserve currency will buy drachmas by the bushel basket.
4) Go on strike against all labor laws and business regulations. If you want to start a business, just do it. Hire employees at will. Pay them whatever the market will bear, ask them to work for as many hours as you mutually agree, and fire them if they don't produce. Pay no attention to any rules and regulations beyond the law of supply and demand. Make the customer king. If Greeks who still know how to work don't get a healthy black market up and running quickly, the whole country will starve.
5) Tar and feather government officials that ask for a bribe or try to shut down your business. Smashing Starbucks windows is idiotic. Direct those inclined to violence to vent their rage at the source of your country's misery. Make a few examples out of government leeches and the rest will leave you alone.
6) Do not let union thugs intimidate you. The Greeks are courageous people, with a long history of resisting oppression. But they are not so good at figuring out who their real oppressors are. If you start or run a business and are threatened by unions because you refuse to accede to their demands, fight back. They are largely to blame for the economic destruction of your country and have no right to tell you how to live and work.
7) Be nice to tourists. Let's face it; Greece is not an export powerhouse. But you can offer the world a nice vacation. Don't spoil it for anyone brave enough to visit. While German taxpayers may be tired of lending you money, German tourists looking for a bargain can fill the void. And instead of their euros getting swallowed by crooked bankers and politicians, you can put them directly into your own pockets.
8) Take care of your own family. Every extended family in Greece has members living off the fat of the government. When that river of largess runs dry, they will come to you for help. Feed their mouths but not their anger, as their cushy government jobs-and the sense of entitlement they create-were a huge part of the problem. If they are still young enough to work, help them become productive by saying goodbye to life on the government payroll.
9) Accept responsibility. The source of your misery is you. You got the governments you voted for. You got the public sector jobs you thought you deserved. You got the bloated pensions you demanded. Don't blame the idiots who were stupid enough to lend you money and finally decided that enough is enough. No one cares about the glory of your ancestors 2,000 years ago. If you want to live in today's world you cannot consume more than you produce.
10) Get out if you can. If the opportunity arises, do what millions of other Greeks have done over the generations, including my grandparents. Vote with your feet. Greeks are incredibly successful and hard working everywhere except in Greece. It's not your genes that are holding you back; it's your political culture.
Democracy becomes a cancer if its powers are not limited. That is because a sustainable democracy requires not just votes, but also governing institutions that protect the rights of minorities against predatory majorities. The disease of voters voting themselves benefits at someone else's expense has infected much of the world. Greece provides a stark example of what happens when a government runs out of other people's money. If the rest of us don't take heed while there is still time, we will all end up like you.
Good luck. As my yiayia used to say "Συν Αθηνά και χείρα κίνει" (which loosely translated means, "God helps those who help themselves.") OK, so maybe it was Ben Franklin who said it. But the advice is still timeless.
- dilbert firestorm
- 05-24-2012, 04:40 AM
Its not the 1st time that Greece got itself into finiancial trouble. About 5 to 10 years before the first olympic games were held in Athens, Greece, a number of western nations had to bail out Greece finacially. the terms were financial reforms had to be in place before they got the monies to prop the govt up. I think something like 2 or 3 greek govt got voted out at each election. this thing is happening again finacially and very likely politically.
- nevergaveitathought
- 05-24-2012, 10:21 AM