Serious Question

I expect the president to be angry that an American died because of his . Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Were you just as angry when the President did not fire antbody when the army lied about how Pat Tillman died?

You all know that the Fast and Furious program really pisses me off. I can guaran-damn-tee you that I would be just as outraged if John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzalez, Edwin Meese, or any other AG you can name under any President had implemented this program and been as incompetent as Eric Holder in the administration thereof.

So I ask you, and be honest now, let's just pretend this was the Bush administration (since you all like to compare Obama to Bush) and John Ashcroft is AG, and the program progressed just like it did under Holder. Who would be defending the program, and who would be as upset as me?

I'm guessing that the libs would be all over Ashcroft and demanding his impeachment, and at least some of you Republicans would be defending Ashcroft.

So, what would your opinion be? My position is that right is right, and wrong is wrong, regardless of who is in charge. And this program was wrong, all wrong, from the beginning.

For extra credit, use the same criteria, and evaluate if your opinion of the NDAA would change.

What say you?

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I was pissed with Clinton and Reno because of Waco, not as pissed as Tim McViegh but pissed.

My position is this selective outrage is pure politics.

My position on F&F is similiar to CJ7...though I believe that some heads should have rolled. But I believe that some heads should have rolled for the Pat Tillman cover-up and I believe damn sure some heads should have rolled after Waco , when the ATF was trying to secure funding and pulled this stunt that backfired to do so.

You make a lot of misassumptions. As for Tillman, you could always call my Congressman and Senator from then. Maybe they've taken me off their "don't answer this call" list. I was on a first name basis with my Senator's intern staffers.

Don't assume that, unlike you, my standards are situational. Try to remember who it was who stopped George Bush's semi-amnesty program and it wasn't the pro-illegal democrats.

You make a lot of misassumptions. As for Tillman, you could always call my Congressman and Senator from then. Maybe they've taken me off their "don't answer this call" list. I was on a first name basis with my Senator's intern staffers.

. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Good, no great!

Don't assume that, unlike you, my standards are situational. Try to remember who it was who stopped George Bush's semi-amnesty program and it wasn't the pro-illegal democrats. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Unlike me? WTF, I praise you , then this.

My standards are not situational.

I did not jump to any conclusion in say the Joe Paterno case or Zimmerman case. I have my own bias going in, just as you and everybody does. We all pick and choose what laws we approve of or not.

Personally I do not think the government should be running guns or starting wars with nations that had nothing to do with 9/11.

bud gave you an honest answer, well thought out too ... Originally Posted by CJ7

he didnt give an honest answer,, it was a half truth misleading answer that obama's press secretary gave for which he was called out on by even the white house press corp and he had to change his weasel words

fast and furious wasnt started under bush, a different program was that was handled totally differently.

carney tried to say it was started under bush and then got called on it and had to say the "tactic" was begun under bush. so they took the genesis of something and molded it into their own program for thier own ideological reasons and now they mislead in many ways, one of which is to try to blame bush.

he didnt give an honest answer,, it was a half truth misleading answer...

...carney tried to say it was started under bush and then got called on it and had to say the "tactic" was begun under bush. so they took the genesis of something and molded it into their own program Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

I think Budman said as much.

I was trying to give CBJ7 the benefit of the doubt. Considering his inability to comprehend even the simplest of concepts, I think he did the best he could.

I don't care who is in office. The truth should come out and the DOJ should have to answer to congressional review. You can make all the excuses you want for this but it was a complete disaster as an operation. There should be a review of how it was developed, who was the decision maker and who knew about the operation. And finally, are they still in a position to make these kind of decisions.

I don't care who is in office. The truth should come out and the DOJ should have to answer to congressional review. You can make all the excuses you want for this but it was a complete disaster as an operation. There should be a review of how it was developed, who was the decision maker and who knew about the operation. And finally, are they still in a position to make these kind of decisions. Originally Posted by Laz

do you feel that way about the military personnel who lied about pat tillmans death?

You can make all the excuses you want for this but it was a complete disaster as an operation. Originally Posted by Laz

Why? Because one officer was killed?

Oh that's right! I keep forgetting who's President.

thier own ideological reasons and now they mislead in many ways, one of which is to try to blame bush. Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

This is about F&F not how Bush misled the public into thinking Saddam had something to do eith 9/11

But WTF, you're trying to justify Holder's action by turning this into a discussion about Pat Tillman, which is not the subject of this thread. You're asking that just take the discussion off course.

And yes, those involved in Pat Tillman's death should be investigated fully, and appropriate sanctions should be applied. Just like this case. Now can we stay on topic? If you want to discuss Tillman, start another thread.

It’s not so much the Fast and the Furious program itself. It was a bad judgment call, but it’s not the first time an AG made a bad judgment call. It’s the cover up that is what is damning. Obama, allegedly the most “transparent” presidency in the history of the country – no world – covered up sad end to a poorly thought out program.

Watergate
Penn State
Iran/Contragate
No WMD’s
The Bay of Pigs

Absolutely, Obama could have saved Holder and himself if he had investigated and shut it down as soon as this came out. Some lower level bureaucrats could have taken the blame (and deserved to take the blame), and this would be over.

Obama's arrogance will be his downfall.

It’s not so much the Fast and the Furious program itself. It was a bad judgment call, but it’s not the first time an AG made a bad judgment call. It’s the cover up that is what is damning. Obama, allegedly the most “transparent” presidency in the history of the country – no world – covered up sad end to a poorly thought out program.

Watergate
Penn State
Iran/Contragate
No WMD’s
The Bay of Pigs Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

A cover-up of what?