- WTF
- 06-21-2010, 07:06 AM
We are all going to die. Some people take the bull by the horns. Depression is a whole 'nother subject. You do not have to be depressed to decide it is time to check out. I personally respect anyone who might make that very personal choice.
- Katy Alexander
- 06-21-2010, 09:05 AM
Becky,Well said, I think that being able to just hold off,and taking the time to think it through can change your perspective
I believe that a lot of people commit suicide as a result of some sort of chemical imbalance. Whether that imbalance is chemical or organic ... if that person had just waited another hour or three or whatever small amount of time, they would probably still be alive.
It's those single moments of time that will change everything with finality and affect the living in ways unimaginable.
Originally Posted by ElisabethWhispers
For some, they swear by exercise. Originally Posted by thxI know some people who rely on exercise/medication/staying away from alcohol as a way to keep their mood balanced .You get an endorphin high from exercise that stays with you for most of the day. I do not know how well it works for severe depression, but for the average person it can be a good place to start.
.
Another perspective on the question.When it comes to a medical condition that you have little control over people should respect your decision if, and when you have decided that it is time.I would hope that you will continue to have medical care if something happened to your job. I think it would be a crime for them to not extend your health benefits considering your situation.
I have a number of health problems which will kill me if left untreated. Unfortunately, they'll kill me slowly, painfully, and leave me debilitated and damn near helpless before they take me.
If I lose my job and lose my health benefits, I am well-nigh unemployable. Since we can't see our way in this great country (if you can't parse the sarcasm tags, upgrade your wetware) to provide universal health care, I've decided quite rationally that if I find myself unemployed and unemployable I'm leaving while I can do so comfortably, rather than as a stroke-paralyzed, blind amputee lying in a pool of my own urine under a bridge.
Just sayin'.
Cheers,
bcg Originally Posted by bluffcityguy
We are all going to die. Some people take the bull by the horns. Depression is a whole 'nother subject. You do not have to be depressed to decide it is time to check out. I personally respect anyone who might make that very personal choice.
I don't know WTF, I have not heard of many happy/healthy ( non depressed ) people committing suicide.That is not to say that it hasn't happened, but usually happy people like to stick around, and enjoy the nice weather lol.
I do agree that it is not mine, or anyone else's place to judge what has to be a hard if not impossible decision to make under any circumstances .I do hope that they at least put a lot of thought in to what they are doing, and, look into other alternatives before making that very final decision.
- WTF
- 06-21-2010, 09:20 AM
I don't know WTF, I have not heard of many happy/healthy ( non depressed ) people committing suicide.That is not to say that it hasn't happened, but usually happy people like to stick around, and enjoy the nice weather lol.We teach that you go to hell for offing yourself.....other religions not so much. So if it's just a matter of nurture not nature.
Originally Posted by Becky
All those suicide bombers seem to be happy enough.
Our society by defaults thinks we are depressed if we decide to end our life. We let people slowly kill themselves by smoking or drinking or any number of other slow death activities. Why the big deal with the ultimate act? I say it is because we are selfish and programmed at an early age....
I don't know WTF, I have not heard of many happy/healthy ( non depressed ) people committing suicide.That is not to say that it hasn't happened, but usually happy people like to stick around, and enjoy the nice weather lol. Originally Posted by BeckyI wasn't saying you had to be happy about it
.....just that for some, it is the best option. You do not have to be depressed , just outta options.
- WTF
- 06-21-2010, 09:30 AM
Simple Test Detects Signs of Suicidal Thoughts
http://depression.about.com/b/2010/0...l-thoughts.htm
- Katy Alexander
- 06-21-2010, 09:47 AM
Why the big deal with the ultimate act? I say it is because we are selfish and programmed at an early age.... Originally Posted by WTFI think that the desire to live is a strong one.You never see animals taking their own lives at a young,healthy age.I think that it is the nature of any living thing to want to keep going as long as there is some quality of life still there.Does that make us selfish? I am sure that we are very selfish. I think in order to survive you almost have to be.
It is such a strong instinct to want to stay alive that I would be very surprised to see a well balanced person go against that.
- WTF
- 06-21-2010, 09:56 AM
I think that the desire to live is a strong one.You never see animals taking their own lives at a young,healthy age.I think that it is the nature of any living thing to want to keep going as long as there is some quality of life still there.Does that make us selfish? I am sure that we are very selfish. I think in order to survive you almost have to be.That is because you live in a society that looks down on that. Look at the Muslim world, young Muslims do it all the time....now you might not think they are well balanced but they sure do. Young people give their life every day. They do it for a cause.
It is such a strong instinct to want to stay alive that I would be very surprised to see a well balanced person go against that. Originally Posted by Becky
Also if the desire to live is so strong, how come we smoke and drink and do not put on sunscreen!
We seem to be saying that it is perfectly normal to over look people that slowly kill themselves but something is wrong with folks who speed up the process. Maybe they know something we don't!
- Katy Alexander
- 06-21-2010, 10:21 AM
That is because you live in a society that looks down on that. Look at the Muslim world, young Muslims do it all the time....now you might not think they are well balanced but they sure do. Young people give their life every day. They do it for a cause.I have to admit that when 9/11 happened I was fascinated with the fact that they could get these young well educated men to give their lives for a cause.That one is beyond me. I have no come back for you
Also if the desire to live is so strong, how come we smoke and drink and do not put on sunscreen!
As far as people who choose to kill themselves slowly I often think that it has to do with self medicating.If you are miserable today, and can take that away for a few hours with a happy pill/drink you do it .Even when you know that the long term effects are not good .I guess that just like animals people are also all about immediate gratification.
- Guest050715-1
- 06-21-2010, 11:15 AM
That is because you live in a society that looks down on that. Look at the Muslim world, young Muslims do it all the time....now you might not think they are well balanced but they sure do. Young people give their life every day. They do it for a cause........... Originally Posted by WTFI was watching “Rattle and Hum” a rocumentary by U2. When referring to Bloody Sunday Bono said, and I’m paraphrasing, “The cause may be worth dieing for, but it is a cause worth killing for?” That got my attention. There are several instances throughout nature of dieing so another can live. I think that is more of what suicide bombing is about then killing one’s self. But you are right, we do live in a society where suicide is absolutely taboo.
I honestly have no idea what causes one person that is depressed or seemingly out of options to kill them selves verses another person that just goes on living. It’s terribly, terribly sad for me to hear of a suicide. The actual pain another person must feel when they decide to kill themselves is overwhelming to me. It is making me cry right now thinking about it.
- Mazomaniac
- 06-21-2010, 11:58 AM
An alternative perspective comes from Dr. Victor Frankel, author of the famous book "Man's Search for Meaning".
Frankel was an Austrian neurologist/psychiatrist and a concentration camp survivor. Frankel spent several years in various concentration camps where he was allowed to live and provide medical treatment for the prisoners. While in the camps he set up "survival clinics" in the hope of getting as many of the prisoners past the camps alive as he could. Suicide was obviously one of his biggest challenges and he worked tirelessly to find a pattern among suicides that would help him identify and help those at risk.
He eventually found a single, clear pattern among both the suicides and the other prisoners-workers who died in the camps: they had all lost "meaning" in their lives. Those who continued to believe that their lives had a purpose continued to live. Those who lost that belief rapidly died - either of suicide or simply by expiring from starvation or disease. The key factor that kept the prisoners alive was a belief that their life still had "meaning".
Frankel's concept of "meaning" doesn't really translate well into English. It starts with the "hope" others have talked about here but goes well beyond that. Frankel's philosophy also saw people gaining meaning in their lives through negative experiences that happened in the past. For instance, he would say that a person who was horribly injured saving the life of another could find "meaning" in his suffering and handicap in knowing that he had prevented the suffering and death of another person. You could just as easily find meaning in creating beautiful art or useful tools or just through caring for and helping your family and friends. To Frankel it's the belief that you aren't completely irrelevant to the world that keeps people going. Frankel developed a specific treatment for neurosis and depression - logotherapy - that is based upon helping people find meaning in their lives that has been very successful in treating some people at high risk for suicide.
I think Frankel's theories fit in nicely with both my personal experiences with suicides and what other have posted here. It's not the 100% sure answer to what drives people to suicide, but I think that Tush's description of it hits the nail on the head: when you can't find anything in life that makes you happy then where is the meaning in living any more? You have to feel that waking up the next has a purpose to it. If not, then there's no reason to wake up ever again. Logotherapy is designed to help people rediscover that purpose.
There are several documented instances of healthy, seemingly normal chimpanzees taking their own lives in captivity. There are also reports of wild elephants killing themselves after being captured as well as the sporadic tale of dogs who decide to end it all by various unnatural means. There's one theory that whale beachings are purposeful self-destruction as well.
There's a big debate among psychologists as to whether these behaviors are really "suicides". Many argue that they are not because animals don't seem to have a sense of "death" like humans do. Others point out that animals do show signs of grief and depression after the death of a companion and that elephants in particular seem to stop and "show respect" for the remains of another elephants.
All that said, I think that when a chimp that knows it can't swim and is normally terrified of going more than a few inches into a body of water throws itself into a moat and drowns you have to think there's something non-random goin' on. This has now happened right in front of people two times at major zoos and has been reported among other chimps in captivity as well. I can't believe that these are not purposeful, knowing acts. There's still a lot to learn from animals about how we and they behave.
Condolences,
Mazo.
Frankel was an Austrian neurologist/psychiatrist and a concentration camp survivor. Frankel spent several years in various concentration camps where he was allowed to live and provide medical treatment for the prisoners. While in the camps he set up "survival clinics" in the hope of getting as many of the prisoners past the camps alive as he could. Suicide was obviously one of his biggest challenges and he worked tirelessly to find a pattern among suicides that would help him identify and help those at risk.
He eventually found a single, clear pattern among both the suicides and the other prisoners-workers who died in the camps: they had all lost "meaning" in their lives. Those who continued to believe that their lives had a purpose continued to live. Those who lost that belief rapidly died - either of suicide or simply by expiring from starvation or disease. The key factor that kept the prisoners alive was a belief that their life still had "meaning".
Frankel's concept of "meaning" doesn't really translate well into English. It starts with the "hope" others have talked about here but goes well beyond that. Frankel's philosophy also saw people gaining meaning in their lives through negative experiences that happened in the past. For instance, he would say that a person who was horribly injured saving the life of another could find "meaning" in his suffering and handicap in knowing that he had prevented the suffering and death of another person. You could just as easily find meaning in creating beautiful art or useful tools or just through caring for and helping your family and friends. To Frankel it's the belief that you aren't completely irrelevant to the world that keeps people going. Frankel developed a specific treatment for neurosis and depression - logotherapy - that is based upon helping people find meaning in their lives that has been very successful in treating some people at high risk for suicide.
I think Frankel's theories fit in nicely with both my personal experiences with suicides and what other have posted here. It's not the 100% sure answer to what drives people to suicide, but I think that Tush's description of it hits the nail on the head: when you can't find anything in life that makes you happy then where is the meaning in living any more? You have to feel that waking up the next has a purpose to it. If not, then there's no reason to wake up ever again. Logotherapy is designed to help people rediscover that purpose.
I think that the desire to live is a strong one.You never see animals taking their own lives at a young,healthy age.I think that it is the nature of any living thing to want to keep going as long as there is some quality of life still there. Originally Posted by BeckyAnd yet we do see animals take their own life.
There are several documented instances of healthy, seemingly normal chimpanzees taking their own lives in captivity. There are also reports of wild elephants killing themselves after being captured as well as the sporadic tale of dogs who decide to end it all by various unnatural means. There's one theory that whale beachings are purposeful self-destruction as well.
There's a big debate among psychologists as to whether these behaviors are really "suicides". Many argue that they are not because animals don't seem to have a sense of "death" like humans do. Others point out that animals do show signs of grief and depression after the death of a companion and that elephants in particular seem to stop and "show respect" for the remains of another elephants.
All that said, I think that when a chimp that knows it can't swim and is normally terrified of going more than a few inches into a body of water throws itself into a moat and drowns you have to think there's something non-random goin' on. This has now happened right in front of people two times at major zoos and has been reported among other chimps in captivity as well. I can't believe that these are not purposeful, knowing acts. There's still a lot to learn from animals about how we and they behave.
Condolences,
Mazo.
- TxBrandy
- 06-21-2010, 12:04 PM
My husband committed suicide in 1994, two days after I packed up the kids and left him due to his cocaine use. I still have issues of guilt though counseling and medication has helped a lot.
All points above are valid and each or a combination of can be a cause. Years later, I went through it - some call it a nervous breakdown. I battled anxiety and depression which caused me to lose my job, neglect my children, etc. I think the final point came about when I realized I was so TIRED. Tired of waking up and facing another day, bill collectors, cooking, taking care of kids, taking care of myself, tired of never seeing an end in sight. I wanted to sleep until I could wake up to a better day. Yes, I got very selfish, it was hard to think about anything except the loom of more despair, more depression, more hopelessness. I convinced myself that I was useless and those that depended on me would be better off finding a happy family, a sane family. People who loved me would get over it and never again would I have to worry about waking up to the same thing day after freaking day.
So I took a bottle of Xanax, didn't know how much was in there and didn't care. As long as it let me sleep until things were better (I know doesn't make sense, it seemed perfectly reasonable at the time). When I woke I was sent to the state mental hospital for nervous breakdown and suicide watch. That was a wake up call and not for what you may think. It was something different! I had a whole new set of issues to worry/think about. It wasn't the same thing day after day anymore. I could look forward to something new, even if it was watching a crazy person get chased down and tackled in the courtyard by the orderlies. The new environment, the new routine, actually helped clear the fog that was in my mind and I could look forward to something again (getting out). And yea, once I got out I could have slipped back into the routine but being there gave me time to clearly think things through and have the self-determination to not get stuck or sucked down that black hole again.
Wow, I totally didn't mean to just spill out my sad sack story here (but obviously I can relate to this issue).
I guess my point is that depression (whether you realize you have it or not) can cause a literal fog to cloud your reasoning, your hopes, and crush your future to the point where the only light at the end of the tunnel is the light you go into when you die.
All points above are valid and each or a combination of can be a cause. Years later, I went through it - some call it a nervous breakdown. I battled anxiety and depression which caused me to lose my job, neglect my children, etc. I think the final point came about when I realized I was so TIRED. Tired of waking up and facing another day, bill collectors, cooking, taking care of kids, taking care of myself, tired of never seeing an end in sight. I wanted to sleep until I could wake up to a better day. Yes, I got very selfish, it was hard to think about anything except the loom of more despair, more depression, more hopelessness. I convinced myself that I was useless and those that depended on me would be better off finding a happy family, a sane family. People who loved me would get over it and never again would I have to worry about waking up to the same thing day after freaking day.
So I took a bottle of Xanax, didn't know how much was in there and didn't care. As long as it let me sleep until things were better (I know doesn't make sense, it seemed perfectly reasonable at the time). When I woke I was sent to the state mental hospital for nervous breakdown and suicide watch. That was a wake up call and not for what you may think. It was something different! I had a whole new set of issues to worry/think about. It wasn't the same thing day after day anymore. I could look forward to something new, even if it was watching a crazy person get chased down and tackled in the courtyard by the orderlies. The new environment, the new routine, actually helped clear the fog that was in my mind and I could look forward to something again (getting out). And yea, once I got out I could have slipped back into the routine but being there gave me time to clearly think things through and have the self-determination to not get stuck or sucked down that black hole again.
Wow, I totally didn't mean to just spill out my sad sack story here (but obviously I can relate to this issue).
I guess my point is that depression (whether you realize you have it or not) can cause a literal fog to cloud your reasoning, your hopes, and crush your future to the point where the only light at the end of the tunnel is the light you go into when you die.
- WTF
- 06-21-2010, 12:20 PM
The actual pain another person must feel when they decide to kill themselves is overwhelming to me. It is making me cry right now thinking about it. Originally Posted by OliviaHowardYou only a phone call away from WTF's mouth to mouth resuscitation hotline!
....U2 Becky! Mazomaniac did you know there were half the suicides in Clinton's 8 years than W's? Probably because Clinton was from HOPE!
- pjorourke
- 06-21-2010, 01:17 PM
- WTF
- 06-21-2010, 01:44 PM
There is a technical term for that: 'Fucking Insane" Originally Posted by pjorourkeLOL....but
That is not what we call our young soldiers that are out on the battlefield coming home in bodybags! That is not what we call a soldier that throws himself in harms way...
It is all just a matter of perspective.
But for Becky's discussion, I think it is safe to say that you and I believe that killing oneself shoud be a choice each of us are allowed to make.
- MrGiz
- 06-21-2010, 03:02 PM
Wonder what the percentage of suicide bombers is, that are blackmailed into it.... as in having their families threatened ? I believe it has to be a factor in many cases!
Giz
Giz
- Katy Alexander
- 06-21-2010, 03:37 PM
LOL....butI remember in grammar school they taught us about Nathan Hale, and what a great hero he was. He is famous for saying right before he was executed I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.Even in grammar school I could not wrap my mind around giving my life for a cause .A child, or loved one Maybe, but not for a cause .I know I would make a very bad soldier
That is not what we call our young soldiers that are out on the battlefield coming home in bodybags! That is not what we call a soldier that throws himself in harms way...
It is all just a matter of perspective.
Originally Posted by WTF
So, yes it is not just Muslim county's that teach this BS to their young.I do agree that suicide is a personal choice, and it really is no ones place to judge, but I also hope that people know that there is hope out there if they do decide to stay around for a while.
TX Brandy, I hope that you no longer feel guilty over your ex husbands choice.It is impossible to help people who do not want it.