Lessons of Vietnam Forgotten

" And it's 1,2,3 what are we fightin' for. Don't ask me I don't give a damn. Let's stop this Vietnam. And it's 5,6,7 open up the Pearly Gates. Well there ain't no time to wonder why WHOOPIE we're all gonna die"

When I made my post yesterday it was just before 1pm CST and a few hours later I believe the story broke that Wikipedia had published U.S. Army secret briefing papers documenting that [among other things] U.S. Command in Afghanistan has suspected that the Pakistan government is colluding with the Taliban. Other things were documented as well, all of which are counter not only to what the U.S. government tells the public, but also what the military tells to their own personnel.

When Danny Ellsberg, formerly from M.I.T., leaked the Rand study he authored using secret Defense Department documents [the "Pentagon Papers"] it was evident from them that the military had not only been misleading the U.S. public about their intentions, but they had been lying to their own servicemen as well.

Whenever I hear a well-meaning serviceman state how much confidence he and his buddies have in their mission all I can do is cry. Soldiers in the field, even if they are officers, are pawns in this game. They believe what they're told, and it's usually all untrue. It is not so much the politicians who lie in these affairs as it is the senior staff, the "brass hats" as John Kennedy was fond of calling them. Once they've committed to a mission it doesn't matter whether they believe in it anymore or not, they will refuse to surrender the field even if doing so requires that they sacrifice their own servicemen, and local bystanders, to do it.

Now that the "Wikipedia Papers" have hit the fan the Pentagon is scrambing to assert that our so-called "ally," Pakistan, is now on our side even if they may not have been for the first eight years of this war! Can anyone believe that you could trust someone who lied to you, killed your soldiers in the field for eight years, and now has somehow come around, and all's forgotten and you're now friends? This illustrates how craven the level of disregard the brass hats have for the lives and sacrifice of their own servicemen. Among these craven officers is of course the new "American hero" General Petraeus.

Regarding the reasons for the initial invasion, they are just as misleading as the conduct of the war. First, the 9-11 attacks were staged by the same group that undertook the 1993 WTC truck bombing, in collaboration with a group of Arab militants living in Germany, but Osama bin-Ladin had nothing to do with it. He directed several other attacks outside of the United States and was planning others, but not the 9-11 attacks. He did take credit for the 9-11 attacks, but neither he or the Taliban had anything to do with it. As well, the Taliban was fed up with bin-Ladin and was seeking for the allies to go in and deal with him after 9-11. Of course it would be politically impossible for the Taliban to capture and turn him over themselves, so they were hoping [and signalling such] that the British and U.S. would go in and get him. At the time British personnel had located bin-Ladin, and were waiting for the U.S. to arrive and dispose of him, but that didn't happen. Instead the Bush administration misled the public about the Talban's culpability in the 9-11 attacks, and used this as a pretext to begin the war. It was undertaken for the same reasons, and in the same way, as the war in Iraq, in which numerous false pretexts were given.

It amazes me how the same people who accept that the Iraq war was based on pretexts fail to suspect that the same thing may have happened in Afghanistan as well.

In 1997 Maj. H.R. McMaster, a West Point graduate, Command and Staff officer, published the book, Dereliction of Duty: Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies that Led to Vietnam.
I served in the First Gulf War, and most active duty officers of "my generation" read that book. Probably other members here also. But nothing seems to have been improved by it. We are doing the same damn things.

" And it's 1,2,3 what are we fightin' for. Don't ask me I don't give a damn. Let's stop this Vietnam. And it's 5,6,7 open up the Pearly Gates. Well there ain't no time to wonder why WHOOPIE we're all gonna die" Originally Posted by TheCandyMan

You dope head hippie antiwar freak!

PE,

It's not only the Services that drink the cool-aid. What's worse is the "defense intelligensia," of which I was once a part. With the Cold War over the Rand Corporation would have no purpose were it not for the threat of "al-Queda," so they've re-invented the shoe bombers and underwear bombers into an international corporation of doom with CEO Osam bin-Ladin leading their phalanxes from his hidden cave somewhere in Whaziristan.

One of my Professors from graduate school in Cambridge, Dr. Graham Allison from the Kennedy School at Harvard, is promoting himself with his absurd book claiming that an atom bomb could be obtained by any terrorist at any time, and could be our new mushroom cloud over any
American city. Thank God we have experts like him to warn us all so we can protect ourselves from destruction.

This is the reason why the New York Times and other so-called respectable sources drank the cool-aid willingly over the phoney Iraqi weapons of mass destruction - it's what the "intellectuals" wished were true.

These so-called intellectuals have nothing to do without an awesome enemy to plan against and talk about. So if no real credible enemy exists they will seek to find one.

Speaking of finding enemies where no real ones exist, everyone should read "In Search of Enemies," by Austinite former CIA Chief John Stockwell.
It was written in 1977 and things have only gotten worse, IMHO always.

There is nothing for us to "win" in Afghanistan. It is a totally fucked up place where tribes/warlords fight each other and us mainly because we are there. Hashish is part of the culture with half the people stoned most of the time. The sooner we get the hell out of there the better. And spare us the jingo about supporting the troops and how great and wonderful our military is. The mission just makes no sense. Hell, there isn't any mission other than for the Inc's to make as much money as they can and for the politicians to forgo the big ooopsie moment when it must be admitted that it was all just a big mistake. In the big scheme of things it is very much like Vietnam, with only the particulars being different.

"I'm here tonight to say that this war is wrong, that this society lied to me, lied to my brothers. They've deceived the people of this country, tricked them into going 13,000 miles to fight a war against a poor, peasant people who have a proud history of resistance, who have been strugling for the wrong independence for 1,000 years - the Vietnamese people. I can't find the words to express, and the leadership of this government sickens me. People say that if you don't love America, then get the hell out. Well, I love America. We love the people of America very much, but when it comes to the government, it stops right there. The government is a bunch of corrupt thieves, they are rapists and robbers. And we are here to say that we don't have to take it anymore. We are here to say that we are here to tell the truth; they are killing our brothers in Vietnam! We want them to hear the truth tonight!" Ron Kovic [to a news camera, outside the 1972 Republican Convention]

Ron Kovic [to a news camera, outside the 1972 Republican Convention] Originally Posted by Texican1969

Ron Kovic was a Vietnam War veteran who adamently spoke against the war upon returning to the States. He was not alone and probably was one of the more vocal critics of the war. The fact that he was confined to a wheelchair at a young age made his story very compelling! I was also a Vietnam veteran (with no major injuries) but I never considered participating in any of the anti-war rallies upon my return home.

In the hearts and minds of the boots on the ground, our overall mission in Vietnam was not easily understandable. When the troops are unclear about the signals coming from the top, it makes it very difficult to have a successful overall strategy! Such was the case in Vietnam!

I offer this only as my perspective and nothing more!

If nothing else this country has definitely learned how to support their troops no matter how corrupt and twisted the gov's agenda might be. It's just ashame and very unfortunate the type of welcomes the troops received coming back from Southeast Asia during the Vietnam era.

I strongly agree with everything that's been said. The sad truth is that many statesmen like war. They think it's a cool idea for obtaining their goals, and they trick the citizenry and soldiers into sacrificing their lives, limbs, mental happiness, and treasure into paying for it. In order for the citizens to make such sacrifices they have to be lied to. They have to be convinced that without such sacrifice that their homeland itself will be endangered, which is never really the case. Shocking events such as 9-11, the attack on Fort Sumptor, or the sinking of the ships Maine and Lusitainia are cravenly used by the media and government to alarm the public into consenting to start wars.

To me one test of whether such wars are really necessary is this: after the war is lost is there any harm that comes to anyone here as a result?

When Vietnam fell to the communists in 1975 there was no one in the United States who was harmed in any way thereby.

If the invasion of Iraq had not happened it is clear that no one here would have been harmed, in any way.

The same is true is Afghanistan. When the US pulls out the Talibs will once again regain the country, and when they do no one in the US will be harmed by it [except for the heroin traffickers here who might lose their current supply].

The United States is supposed to be a democracy, and the Congress alone is supposed to have the power to commit the people [not an elite] to the horrors of war.

When the American public take their government and constitution back from the financial and intellectual elites that have suborned it then this mischief will end, but no sooner. So far all the politicians and intellectuals have to do is wait a few years for the public to forget the last failed wars, and then they start new ones all over again.

Muslims hate Muslims, that sums it up...been fighting each other since the day Islam was created...

It's just ashame and very unfortunate the type of welcomes the troops received coming back from Southeast Asia during the Vietnam era. Originally Posted by Texican1969

I agree! About a year or so after I returned to the States I had a change of plane in the Atlanta airport. While waiting to board my flight to Houston, I noticed an E-5 walking up in his dress uniform and I briefly exchanged pleasantries with him. He was wearing a CIB (Combat Infantryman's Badge) which immediately told him that he had been to Vietnam. He sat down in the next row of seats in front of me. He was totally minding his own business. A short while later I heard a woman scream out the word's "Baby Killer." I looked up and saw the young lady spitting at him. She had several others standing next to her.

A middle aged lady sitting nearby quickly took charge of the situation and got between the young lady and the E-5. Had she not done so, I really do not know what would have happened. The E-5 was absolutely livid and I could understand why. It could have just as easily have been me that the young lady spit at. I have often wondered what would have happened that day if the other lady would not have gotten between them.

It is safe to say that this brief and totally uncalled for incident left a lasting impression upon me!

Damn...that's totally F'd up and uncalled for. I can't believe there's still some ignorant people like that woman and those mofo's that were standing next to her supporting that type of behavior. Like I've said that's a damn shame...<shaking head>

I agree! About a year or so after I returned to the States I had a change of plane in the Atlanta airport. While waiting to board my flight to Houston, I noticed an E-5 walking up in his dress uniform and I briefly exchanged pleasantries with him. He was wearing a CIB (Combat Infantryman's Badge) which immediately told him that he had been to Vietnam. He sat down in the next row of seats in front of me. He was totally minding his own business. A short while later I heard a woman scream out the word's "Baby Killer." I looked up and saw the young lady spitting at him. She had several others standing next to her.

A middle aged lady sitting nearby quickly took charge of the situation and got between the young lady and the E-5. Had she not done so, I really do not know what would have happened. The E-5 was absolutely livid and I could understand why. It could have just as easily have been me that the young lady spit at. I have often wondered what would have happened that day if the other lady would not have gotten between them.

It is safe to say that this brief and totally uncalled for incident left a lasting impression upon me! Originally Posted by bigtex

I cannot believe someone would do that to true American heroes such as yourselves. The men and women who make that sacrifice of serving their country deserve nothing but respect and admiration. They are much braver than I ever could be.

sixx

"let every politican who sings the praises of war from their lofty podiums pick up a rifle and march to the drums of war; to see the carnage; to smell the death; to look into the abyss of Hell's Gate, then return to those lofty podiums and realize they have nothing more to say....."

I spoke these words on the steps of the Jefferson Memorial 22 July 1973