Evolution? Intelligent Design? God did it all in 7 days?

Karl Marx was a HUGE FAN of "Origin of Species."

From: http://www.darwinthenandnow.com/2010/04/darwin-on-marx/

The American researcher Conway Zirckle explains why the founders of Communism immediately accepted Darwin’s theory -
“Marx and Engels accepted evolution almost immediately after Darwin published The Origin of Species. Evolution, of course, was just what the founders of communism needed to explain how mankind could have come into being without the intervention of any supernatural force, and consequently it could be used to bolster the foundations of their materialistic philosophy.”

Game, Set, Match.

Originally Posted by joe bloe

You have a serious problem with cause and effect, don't you?

The fact that a communist wants to use evolution--or any scientific theory--as a piece of propaganda does not make evolution right or wrong. That is more dumb illogic.

I bet many communists believed Moskow was the capital of the USSR--are you implying that because the comunists believed it, then in reality Moscow was not the capitol?

It also does not follow that if communists thought evolution was a useful tool for their political leanings, that non-comunists must be opposed. I hate to pop your illusion, but I am willing to bet most socialists, nazis, tribal leaders, and even conservative bible thumpres believe 2 + 2 = 4. Same with evolution.

I can't wait for his answer!

Come on bojulay, don't dissappoint! Originally Posted by WTF

Actually no one knows- scientist themselves have changed how old they think the earth is numerous of times- but let's answer it from the biblical perspective. The bible never says earth is 4,000, 6,000 or 4.5 billion years old. It merely says God created the heaven and earth in 6 days- who knows what 6 days are to God.

You have some Christians scholars who believe that Angels or other "gods" also created man or humans- the Bible text says : Let US make man in our own image- the operative word is US meaning God was talking to other people- so perhaps Angels or other entities had a hand in creation.

I think there might be some truth to that theory because God creates Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve have 2 sons Cain and Abel. Cain kills Abel- so there should only be 3 humans on earth: Adam, Eve and Cain. Cain gets punished and gets sent to another "territory"- when he arrived at the new territory- he is met by other "people". So where did those people come from? Some theorize that angels/gods or whatever you want to call them also created humans- but Adam was the first that was created by God. I even heard some theorize that Adam was basically the first "modern" man and that perhaps pre-histoiic "uncivilized" men had exited before- who knows they are all theories.

You asking the age of the earth is as irrelevant as me asking you who built the pyramids- scientist and archaeologist have said that the Egyptians had 1000's of slave labor build the pyramids- well we all know that's total bullshit- the great pyramids is mathematically perfect plus add to the fact it's aligned with one of the constellations in space- keep in mind the height of the Great pyramid as well as many of those stones weighing 5 to 10 tons a piece- do you really think slaves tied a rope around a 5 ton rock and dragged it the tone into place? Whom are you kidding?
Google PumaPunku- that is actually older than the Pyramids and the average weight of each stone is 10 tons- this was built before the invention of the wheel- and it's stated that you can't even slide a paper between the crevices of each stone- it's as if the stones were molted together- also the granite that the stone is made of to this day it's compromised of the 2nd hardest substance on earth- so # 1 - how did they move these stones- when there was no wheel- how did they carve the stones when the only material that could cut the stone is Diamond- I would love you to answer that question.

The age of the earth has no bearing or impact on the bible since it does not actually give a date.

Let me ask you another question- how long did the first modern man live- currently I believe the avg lifespan of a man is ~80 years old, but what would have been the lifespan of the first modern man that lived 45,000 years ago? I assume you are going to tell me that life expectancy is not linear? In Jesus time you were considered old when you hit 0- just curious how early men survived- their life expectancy had to be what 18- if you factor in- diseases, harsh weather conditions- hunting, etc, no technology- if they were primarily meat eaters- surely that had to have some Cardiovascular diseases.

Actually no one knows- scientist themselves have changed how old they think the earth is numerous of times- but let's answer it from the biblical perspective. The bible never says earth is 4,000, 6,000 or 4.5 billion years old. It merely says God created the heaven and earth in 6 days- who knows what 6 days are to God.

. Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

Exactly...who knows? That means the Bible can mean anything. Who knows? You said it yourself.

You Bible Thumpers can just change the meaning on a whim.

Wrong. Again.

I agree that not everything that lables itself as science is indeed science, but the real scientific work is inherently honest. It ststes what was seen, measured, etc. It hypothisizes how the data fits together, and encourages others to test the hypothesis to either strengthen it, refute it, or modify it.

It is the litteralist among they creationists who toss away facts with "That's not what MY bible says", and who put forth hypotheses that have little if any data to support them. It is the creationists who typically confuse WHY with HOW (though I do agree Hawkins walks close to that line at times also).

Hidden agendas? Having been a peripheral participant in the evolution/creation scientific debate for 33 years now the hidden agenda is almost always (not even close, really) the creationists who play that game. Most proponents of evolution--those who have devoted their life to the study, find it makes them more religious, not less. More a believer in a god who used evolution as his tool. But most of them--unlike the creationists--understand WHY and HOW are questions in two very different domains.




Complete crap! But I suspect you know that.
Originally Posted by Old-T

Even the most principled of reaserchers can bring bias or an agenda to their work. Einstein liked the idea of a steady state universe and even purposefully ignored information in his work that pointed towards one.He later bought into expanding universe theory but not until LeMaitre's work forced him to.

Exactly...who knows? That means the Bible can mean anything. Who knows? You said it yourself.

You Bible Thumpers can just change the meaning on a whim. Originally Posted by WTF

True but the Bible never gives it a date or a time period- I believe the Bible is the word of God- but obviously things will get lost in translation- but there's just way too many things in the Bible that are just too accurate for me to dismiss. Read the Book of Daniel- either Daniel had some connection with a higher power or he was the luckiest man to ever live because too many of his prophecies came true and he made them hundreds of years before they happened.

I believe the Bible is the word of God. Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

Well I suppose that kinda says it all, doesn't it!

Really? I wonder if you have an answer for literally hundreds of prophecies that came true - I guess who ever wrote that so called fable of the Book called the Bible were just lucky when they predicted events hundreds and thousand of years before they happened.
Start naming the "hundreds". They must be specific - not generalities or ambiguous. And they cannot be something that humans have control over and can caused happen. That's not a real prophecy that just humans fulfilling a wish made by their ancestors. See below regarding Israel.

If someone said 500 years ago that a comet would explode over a Russian city on February 17, 2013, then THAT is a real prediction.

Funny thing is some of these events are happening as we speak and yet you are too blind to see it- Bible predicts a cash less society- can you tell me what option is becoming more popular- cash or credit card payments?
Where does the Bible say that? And the alleged Bible quote had better not say that one day money will disappear - meaning that man will no longer be greedy. It has to say that man will use credit devices as a substitute for cash. Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

Here are some other predictions that have come out of that so called fable of a book we call the Bible:

The nation Israel would be born in one day (Isaiah 66:8). On May 14, 1948 Israel became a nation.
This is an event controlled by humans who were aware of the statements in Isaiah. Jews had longed for many years to reestablish a homeland in the Middle East. They had to wait until the British Empire weakened and then they started a guerrilla war. When humans act to make something written in an old book come true, that hardly means that the prophet actually foresaw the future. It is more like "retroactive prophecy".

And what do you mean by "born in one day"? Isn't every newly independent nation born in one day, including the US on July 4, 1776?

Israel, once a desolate desert, would blossom in the last days and export produce to the world (Isaiah 27:6; 35:1-2; Ezekiel 36:34-36).
Once again, "retroactive prophecy". Humans who are aware of what is written in the Bible and acting to make come true. NOT a real prophecy. Once again, point out a Biblical prophecy that was specific and beyond the control of humans to implement. Like a crashing comet or an earthquake - at a specific time and place.

Also, it says "in the last days". How do you know there are the "last days"? If the Arabs overrun israel and force all the Jews out and the world continues to go on, what happens to your prediction then?

Israel's increased rainfall and world-renowned irrigation technology have caused the land to blossom.

Modern technology has made a lot of deserts blossom, including right here in the United States. Once again, not a prophecy.

Incredibly, as foretold, they currently export over 800 million dollars worth of fresh produce each year, including over 200 million in flowers and ornamental plants!
Did the Bible actually foretell "over 800 million dollars" every year? Dollars didn't exist back in 2000 BC. Are you just making stuff up and saying that the word "blossom" covers all of it?

A pure language would be restored (Zephaniah 3:9). At the end of the 19th century the Zionist movement brought about the revival of Hebrew as a spoken language. In 1948, Hebrew became an official tongue of the state of Israel. Originally there was only one language (Genesis 11:1) and this pure speech will be restored (Isaiah 19:18). Interestingly, Hebrew has no swear words.

Jerusalem would be rebuilt on its own ruins (Jeremiah 30:18; Zechariah 12:6). Since 1948, Jerusalem has been rebuilt on the old ruins exactly as foretold.
Once again, modern humans, aware of the contents of the Bible, are acting to "force it to come true". Once again, retroactive prophecy.

Scientific claims anticipated by Scripture

What are the scientific proof that man’s body came from the dust of the ground, as the Bible says?
How is that a prophecy? Isn't that common sense? Why wouldn't the human body be made up of the same stuff as the rest of the world? Ancient people knew from observation that a human body rotted into dust after death. The same way animals did. And they could see human skeletons decay into calcium the same as animal carcasses.

The human body is made up of materials and minerals found on the surface of the ground, and not from the core of the earth. What do you mean "and not from the core of the earth? The same materials that are on the surface are also found in the core of the earth. Like iron, which is a fundamental building block of the hemoglobin in your blood and slo make up a big chunk of the earths core..

Oxygen, being the most abundant element on the earth’s crust or on the ground, makes up 65 percent of the human body, and carbon, also abundant on the top soil of the ground, is 18 percent, and hydrogen is 10 percent. The 59 elements found in the human body are all found on the earths crust. They are found in the core, too. Just in different amounts according to melting points and solubility in water. This is amazing because what the Bible says perfectly match the scientific composition of a human body.
This isn't amazing. This is pure horseshit. It is just pure desperation on your part. The Bible only mentions "dust". From that meager word, you deduce the Bible perfectly matches the scientific compostion of the human body. Really? Does it mention oxygen? NO. Does it mention Carbon? NO. Does it mention calcium? Iodine? Nitrogen? None of the above. Sorry, but I have a higher standard of proof than the word "dust".

Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).
There has to be a dozen different ways to interpret that comment.
The Bible also said a bunch of stuff in Genesis about water covering the earth (false) and the dry land separating out of the water (false).

[B]The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. No, actually, ancient Egyptian scholars knew the world was round back around 2500 BC when the pyramids were being built. The first Books of the Bible didn't come about for nearly another 1000 years (Moses around 1500 BC). And, since the Jews were in captivity in Egypt, they were just repeating what they were taught by the Egyptians. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world.

Keep in mind back in those days- it was greatly believed that the earth was flat- but I guess whoever wrote this "fable" took a lucky guess right Ex-Nyer and WTF?
See above how you are wrong.

Also, in the past decades- scientist- many of them who believe in evolution believe that snakes once had legs/limbs: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12393387
http://phys.org/news/2011-02-x-rays-...g-ancient.html

Well I guess that puts to rest the story in the Bible- book of Genesis where as punishment God tells the serpent :"upon your belly you will crawl all the days of your lives..." So I assuming before God issued the punishment- the snake must have had legs/limbs- just as scientist have now recently discovered-
Why do you assume that? maybe the snake was already on its belly and God was telling it it was going to stay there?

And BTW, doesn't this "prophecy" actually mean that evolution is true? Because the snake fossil is evidence of evolution, isn't it? And it was found in rock that was 95 MILLION YEARS OLD? Or did you conveniently skip that part of the article? Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

So how old is the earth WE1911?

WTF can you answer my question on who built the pyramids- I am pretty sure in hitory class many years ago you were taught that the Egyptians has slaves that used to help build the pyramids- well now that I am much wiser I am calling bullshit. Also, please do research on PumaPunku located in Boliva- it's over 10,000 years old- way before the wheel was invented- the average stone weighs 10 tons- how did they lift those stones on top of each other- as I mentioned before the stones are so intact that you can not even slide a paper through it's crevices. Did the Incas also use slaves to lift 10 ton boulders? How did they cut/carve the stones when the stones are made of material that can only be cut by diamond- or lasers- which they didn't have in those days. I really would like to hear your response.

[SIZE=3]
So how old is the earth WE1911? Originally Posted by ExNYer

Older than you and I- don't know wan't there when it was created- and neither were you- the point is moot- scientist says there's over 100,000 neurons that are at work in the brain every second- that's like asking me how do you know it' 100,000 have you counted them? You are asking me a question that is redundant and useless to prove a point-ask yourself how many time have they changed how old the earth is- when I was in school in the 80's we were taught billion- today I hear 4.5 billion to 5 billion so in 20 plus years scientist have discovered they were off by 500 million to 1 billion years- are you fucking kidding me? That very tidbit right there should tell you that nobody knows the the true age.

Actually no one knows- scientist themselves have changed how old they think the earth is numerous of times- but let's answer it from the biblical perspective. The bible never says earth is 4,000, 6,000 or 4.5 billion years old. It merely says God created the heaven and earth in 6 days- who knows what 6 days are to God.

You have some Christians scholars who believe that Angels or other "gods" also created man or humans- the Bible text says : Let US make man in our own image- the operative word is US meaning God was talking to other people- so perhaps Angels or other entities had a hand in creation.

I think there might be some truth to that theory because God creates Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve have 2 sons Cain and Abel. Cain kills Abel- so there should only be 3 humans on earth: Adam, Eve and Cain. Cain gets punished and gets sent to another "territory"- when he arrived at the new territory- he is met by other "people". So where did those people come from? Some theorize that angels/gods or whatever you want to call them also created humans- but Adam was the first that was created by God. I even heard some theorize that Adam was basically the first "modern" man and that perhaps pre-histoiic "uncivilized" men had exited before- who knows they are all theories.

You asking the age of the earth is as irrelevant as me asking you who built the pyramids- scientist and archaeologist have said that the Egyptians had 1000's of slave labor build the pyramids- well we all know that's total bullshit- the great pyramids is mathematically perfect plus add to the fact it's aligned with one of the constellations in space- keep in mind the height of the Great pyramid as well as many of those stones weighing 5 to 10 tons a piece- do you really think slaves tied a rope around a 5 ton rock and dragged it the tone into place? Whom are you kidding?
Google PumaPunku- that is actually older than the Pyramids and the average weight of each stone is 10 tons- this was built before the invention of the wheel- and it's stated that you can't even slide a paper between the crevices of each stone- it's as if the stones were molted together- also the granite that the stone is made of to this day it's compromised of the 2nd hardest substance on earth- so # 1 - how did they move these stones- when there was no wheel- how did they carve the stones when the only material that could cut the stone is Diamond- I would love you to answer that question.

The age of the earth has no bearing or impact on the bible since it does not actually give a date.

Bullshit. The Bible spells out the generations from Adam through to Moses and then to King David and finally to Jesus. Using average human life span, you can get a good ballpark figure of how old the Bible requires the earth to be. And don't give us that bullshit that we don't now what "days" are to God. According to Leviticus 18:22, "Homosexual acts are an abomination to God". How come Bible thumpers have no problem telling us what an "abomination" meant to God.

Let me ask you another question- how long did the first modern man live- currently I believe the avg lifespan of a man is ~80 years old, but what would have been the lifespan of the first modern man that lived 45,000 years ago? I assume you are going to tell me that life expectancy is not linear? In Jesus time you were considered old when you hit 0- just curious how early men survived- their life expectancy had to be what 18- if you factor in- diseases, harsh weather conditions- hunting, etc, no technology- if they were primarily meat eaters- surely that had to have some Cardiovascular diseases.
If you are trying to make some kind of point, I have no idea what it is. Can you clarify? Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

We already has this conversation in another evolution thread and all of the crappy points you are making here were debunked in the earlier thread. But NOTHING changes your mind, does it?

So let me repeat one of the things I said to you in the earlier thread. If a pyramid points in the sky, it has to be pointed at SOMETHING, because the sky is filled with celestial body. Walk outside and point your finger in the air. There now, You are pointed a some star or galaxy or constellation. What does that prove?

And constellations aren't actual celestial bodies in the way planets, moons, stars or even galaxies are. The aren't points in the sky. They are large regions of the sky in which lots and lots or stars are located. They are by connect-the-dot lines between certain stars. So when you point to constellations, what does that mean? What part of it are you pointed at?

[SIZE=3]
So how old is the earth WE1911? Originally Posted by ExNYer

Ex-Nyer you are only making a jack ass out of yourself- if you think those predictions are just "people" trying to make things happen that there's no convincing you- Israel is living proof of prophecy- Israel had everything going against them and to this day they still do yet they are fulfilling prophecy- but if you can't ee it no sense of me talking or arguing with you- Israel is what the size of Rhodhe Island- it has enemies al around them- during the 6 days war- they literally destroyed about other nations at one time- they have today one of the best trained and most powerful armies- this is one of my IMHO reasons why I don't think Iran would ever nuke Israel- the main reason is not in the prophecy Israel will stand and 2nd reason- after Mecca- Jerusleam is the 2nd holiest city to muslims- so nuking Isreal without doing any damage to Jerusleam just is not going to happen.

We already has this conversation in another evolution thread and all of the crappy points you are making here were debunked in the earlier thread. But NOTHING changes your mind, does it?

So let me repeat one of the things I said to you in the earlier thread. If a pyramid points in the sky, it has to be pointed at SOMETHING, because the sky is filled with celestial body. Walk outside and point your finger in the air. There now, You are pointed a some star or galaxy or constellation. What does that prove?

And constellations aren't actual celestial bodies in the way planets, moons, stars or even galaxies are. The aren't points in the sky. They are large regions of the sky in which lots and lots or stars are located. They are by connect-the-dot lines between certain stars. So when you point to constellations, what does that mean? What part of it are you pointed at? Originally Posted by ExNYer

you didn't debunk shit- if you think you debunked it- shouldn't you be a multi-millionaire and shouldn't you be famous? If you debunked it- shouldn't you have hundreds and thousand of people following your viewpoint. did you get pm's saying oh Ex-Nyer you are right I am going to stop believing in God and believe what you say because Ex-Nyer you were there in the beginning of time and you know everything.

Bottomline you have your belief and I have mine, but if you think you are so correct you may want to write a book or something- last time I checked there are about 2.1 billion christians on earth-roughly 1/3 of the population- then add in 1.6 billion muslims who believe in the same creation story- so with muslims and christians alone- that 3.7 billion- well over half who believe in the version I believe in- then combine that with other religions who believe in some sort of God/Gods and you perhaps have about 3/4 of the world(I would say about 90% or Greater) who would call what you saying as BULLSHIT- I like my odds.

Older than you and I- don't know wan't there when it was created- and neither were you- the point is moot- scientist says there's over 100,000 neurons that are at work in the brain every second- that's like asking me how do you know it' 100,000 have you counted them? You are asking me a question that is redundant and useless to prove a point-ask yourself how many time have they changed how old the earth is- when I was in school in the 80's we were taught billion- today I hear 4.5 billion to 5 billion so in 20 plus years scientist have discovered they were off by 500 million to 1 billion years- are you fucking kidding me? That very tidbit right there should tell you that nobody knows the the true age. Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

No, that tells me that scientists are getting better and better at figuring out the actual age.

Let me ask you point blank:

How old do you think the earth is? And I mean in regular years that we experience, not that sophist nonsense about how we don't know how long the first days were because there was no sun yet according to Genesis.

Do you think the earth is less than 10.000 years old?

Or about 5 billion? Originally Posted by ExNYer

I am certain it has an age.

Let me one up you by asking a better question.

Where did the first organism come from?
The one that started it all.

Did it come from Dawkins space man or was it
spontaneously generated right here on the earth?

Come on now, which would be the more scientific answer,
sense we so worship science.

WTF can you answer my question on who built the pyramids- I am pretty sure in history class many years ago you were taught that the Egyptians has slaves that used to help build the pyramids- well now that I am much wiser I am calling bullshit. Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

Can you please put in some citations for your bullshit theories so we can get a good laugh? Anyhow, here is one perfectly good explanation for how they cut and moved the stones to get them into place:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0328104302.htm
Here is a partial quote:

"According to Redford, ancient Egyptian quarrying methods -- the processes for cutting and removing stone -- are still being studied. Scholars have found evidence that copper chisels were using for quarrying sandstone and limestone, for example, but harder stones such as granite and diorite would have required stronger materials, said Redford. Dolerite, a hard, black igneous rock, was used in the quarries of Aswan to remove granite.

During excavation, massive dolerite "pounders" were used to pulverize the stone around the edge of the granite block that needed to be extracted. According to Redford, 60 to 70 men would pound out the stone. At the bottom, they rammed wooden pegs into slots they had cut, and filled the slots with water. The pegs would expand, splitting the stone, and the block was then slid down onto a waiting boat.
Teams of oxen or manpower were used to drag the stones on a prepared slipway that was lubricated with oil. Said Redford, a scene from a 19th century B.C. tomb in Middle Egypt depicts "an alabaster statue 20 feet high pulled by 173 men on four ropes with a man lubricating the slipway as the pulling went on."

Once the stones were at the construction site, ramps were built to get them into place on the pyramid, said Redford. These ramps were made of mud brick and coated with chips of plaster to harden the surface. "If they consistently raised the ramp course by course as the teams dragged their blocks up, they could have gotten them into place fairly easily," he noted. At least one such ramp still exists, he said."

SEE? No need for ancient astronauts. Just good old human ingenuity carried out over 20+ years.

Also, please do research on PumaPunku located in Boliva- it's over 10,000 years old- way before the wheel was invented- the average stone weighs 10 tons- how did they lift those stones on top of each other- as I mentioned before the stones are so intact that you can not even slide a paper through it's crevices. Did the Incas also use slaves to lift 10 ton boulders? How did they cut/carve the stones when the stones are made of material that can only be cut by diamond- or lasers- which they didn't have in those days. I really would like to hear your response. Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

What one man can do, another man can do. If the Egyptians could move big blocks, so could the Incans. Also, accoding to this Wiki article, PumaPunku dates to about 400-600 AD. That's 1500 years ago. Were did you get the 10,000 year old number?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

And here is a nice website debunking all the paranormal bullshit surrounding PumaPunku:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4202

Read ALL of it.