When it finally happens, 21 - 0.

I’m a lifelong Bucco fan. 2015 was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. 97 win season and in 2016 we dumped salary. We were probably one quality starting pitcher or one decent power hitter away from being good enough to make the World Series. I don’t buy the garbage that the Pirates organization tries to sell us. They’ve been trading away big league proven talent for unproven prospects for decades. Typically that’s a smart move but the Pirates do that solely to justify not paying legitimate players what they’re owed. MLB is definitely broken and they’re only hurting their own product by not forcing teams to spend money or having a salary cap. Calling Pittsburgh a “small market” is a lie. We have some of the largest fan bases in nfl and nhl. When there is a decent team to root for, attendance is strong. Nutting could easily spend an extra few million a year on player salaries. But we just keep building for the future. Originally Posted by Loretta77

Yep, early in this thread, it was suggested that this years actions are somehow different that the last ten years, nothing is going to change, how much better can a complete existing talent dump help?

Sure, we have had teams buy their way into the playoffs, with young talent, but, its not going to happen if there is no money or desire to do it.

Further, what player wants to come to the black hole of Calcutta, a place where talent goes to just be traded off, for more prospects, prospects that usually don't produce, but if they do, GONE.

I kind of loved McCutcheon coming back and singlehandidly showing how stupid it was to trade him off, in the loss he handed the butt Pirates.

He must have felt like Tom Brady in Tampa Bay watching what happed to New England once he left, mediocrity.

At this point, for both fan and political reasons, there is no sport in the burgh I see going anywhere good.

The Steelers are dead to me, as long as they remain an Affirmative Action team, buying color and not talent unless its non white, the Pirates offer nothing, and the Pens, if they can somehow pull even the first round out of their ass, that would be a win for them.

The cup, not holding my breath, but, we can hope, there are miracles.

I’m a lifelong Bucco fan. 2015 was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. 97 win season and in 2016 we dumped salary. We were probably one quality starting pitcher or one decent power hitter away from being good enough to make the World Series. I don’t buy the garbage that the Pirates organization tries to sell us. They’ve been trading away big league proven talent for unproven prospects for decades. Typically that’s a smart move but the Pirates do that solely to justify not paying legitimate players what they’re owed. MLB is definitely broken and they’re only hurting their own product by not forcing teams to spend money or having a salary cap. Calling Pittsburgh a “small market” is a lie. We have some of the largest fan bases in nfl and nhl. When there is a decent team to root for, attendance is strong. Nutting could easily spend an extra few million a year on player salaries. But we just keep building for the future. Originally Posted by Loretta77

Pittsburgh is a small market. That is a fact. Just because the Pens and Steelers have strong attendance doesn't change the market size. And the reason the Pens and Steelers are successful is the NHL and NFL has a salary cap system. MLB does not which makes it impossible for half the teams to fairly compete.

Just think back before the NHL had a year long lockout that brought in a salary cap. In a period of years the Pens had gone bankrupt, then were at the bottom of the standings and explored moving. The thing that saved them was the full salary cap system. That is what is needed in MLB

And as I explained earlier, what Cherington has done with this full rebuild is FAR DIFFERENT from what Huntington used to do. You can't compare the two as the same. Doesn't mean it's going to work but Cherington's method is the only way small market clubs can compete in the current economic system

I kind of loved McCutcheon coming back and singlehandidly showing how stupid it was to trade him off, in the loss he handed the butt Pirates.
Originally Posted by Devo

You can't be serious. You show your lack of knowledge about baseball with this statement. McCutcheon was traded at the right time - when he was past his prime. He has gone down hill ever since the trade. And the Pirates best player came over in that trade

... Hey mate --- sometimes I wonder if you argue just to argue....

How 'bout we let people give their OPINIONS. ... Let's try that.

### Salty

Berry, I get it. I hope you’re right. I always have a hard time deciding whether to respect or feel sorry for people who trust the process of this corrupt organization. The thing that infuriates me is the fact that our team salary total has been atrocious for decades. Nobody expects the Pittsburgh pirates to spend 300 million in salaries to complete with the Dodgers. But for god’s sake we could muster up an extra 30-50 million a season to perhaps buy a starting pitcher or hitter worth going to the stadium to see. Easy for me to say, it’s not my money. But they’ve been profitable year in and year out and I’m sick of supporting a team that skimps on their product. That being said, I’m unfortunately a stubborn pirate fan through thick and thin. I just try not to go see games with the hopes that low attendance encourages ownership to pony up the proper amount to compete.

Hey Salty - people are definitely entitled to state their own opinions. Just as I am

They are not however entitled to making up their own facts. For example - it is not hard to look by any objective measure at McCutchen's career and see that he peaked in 2014/15 when he was age 27/28 and by the time he was traded at age 31 he was well into the downside of his career and not worth the money he would have been paid. There have been studies which show the average MLB player has his peak year at age 27.

And since MLB salaries are all guaranteed, unless you are a big market club with unlimited resources (like the Mets for example who just cut Robinson Cano while still owing him $40 million dollars), you can't afford to make mistakes by giving long guaranteed contracts to players once they pass their prime. Shoot, take a look at the best run small market club - Tampa Bay. They consistently trade off their proven talent for younger prospects once that proven talent starts getting too expensive / too old / approaching free agency. But they have a very strong scouting and development system that helps the younger prospects they acquire to be successful more often than not. That is the model for success and one which the Pirates are now looking to emulate

Loretta77 - Oh I here you. I hate Nutting and wish he would sell the team. I try not to give him any money by buying tickets. For example, I have gone to Florida during spring training the last 6 years and unless I have no other choice, will buy my tickets off of someone on Stubhub instead of putting money in Nutting's pocket

The Pirates have been frustrating indeed for any fan. And I was skeptical about Cherington when he was hired. But the plan he has in place makes a whole lot of sense. We just need to see if the prospect evaluation and development is up to snuff. He has targeted high upside players and went full rebuild - trading virtually any veteran of value (except Reynolds) to flood the system with prospects because he knows not every prospect turns out. Huntington never went full rebuild and when he made trades, he took high floor low ceiling guys. He was risk averse compared to Cherington.

And you are right, Nutting could spend more on payroll the last few years. But they were always going to suck during the full rebuild so why waste the money. Cherington's has said you need to look at the budget from a multi year perspective. So for sake of argument, lets say the salary budget is $80M a year - and for 3 years during the rebuild they only spend $50M a year. Then he can take that savings and use it in the future to lock up prospects (like he did with Hayes) and bump the payroll to $110M a year for 3 years. Now, obviously fans have no reason to trust Nutting that he will spend this money saved. But Cherington and Travis Williams have said this is a commitment they have from Nutting and would these guys have taken the job if they didn't think he would follow through?

Only time will tell, but I am more confident of the Pirates future now than I have been for decades

Welp Berry, I’m trusting your assessment. Just do me a favor, If if those 110 million dollar years never happen, roast them for yet again lying to us loyal fans.

... Hey mate --- sometimes I wonder if you argue just to argue....

How 'bout we let people give their OPINIONS. ... Let's try that.

### Salty Originally Posted by Salty Again

Oh Salty, don't you know he's always right.

Heaven forbid someone has an opinion that doesn't' agree with his.

What do you expect from someone who bumps every post he makes half a dozen times whether someone replies or not.

Basically, this has turned into the Berryberry forum, all the left leaning folks have been driven off, he insists you stay on topic in his posts, but he's first to come and shit in someone elses.

The entire point of this thread is about how the ownership of the Pirates have driven even their last and most loyal fans away for good, not about whether my opinion of the what the team is doing is correct or not, because the bottom line is, what they are doing is not working, and its at the point where its not going to matter because nobody is left that's going to give a fuck.

And, Loretta et al, feel free to have your own opinion, you don't have to bow down to berry and treat him as if his is the only opinion that matters.

Because at this rate, after he shits on any thread that draws more attention than his threads is going to kill what's left of this place.

Berry, respectfully, go fuck yourself, I don't give a shit what you think of my opinion, its mine, also, I'd appreciate if you don't go off topic in my posts, if you want to talk about the Pirates development or Andrew McCutcheons stats, start your own fucking thread about it.

FFS, when Salty tells you to lay off, take the hint.

Welp Berry, I’m trusting your assessment. Just do me a favor, If if those 110 million dollar years never happen, roast them for yet again lying to us loyal fans. Originally Posted by Loretta77

Oh no worries - I will. As I said I hate Nutting and wish he would sell the team. But the plan Cherington has put in place is the way a small market club has to compete. It's the best option - like the Tampa Bay model. Let's hope his scouting and development staff are able to make it succeed

Mods, please lock this thread, I'm fucking done here, I've done my best to help support and generate some interest in this forum over the last few months, and its just not worth the time or bother just to walk away frustrated again, AGAIN.

Come on guys. This was a good discussion. Keep posting devo. Bitching about nutting is one of my favorite pastimes.

Yeah Loretta77, I think bitching about Nutting is a favorite pasttime of most Pittsburgh baseball fans. He's earned it.

Not sure why Devo is so upset that people may disagree with him. That is part of good discussion

Mods, please lock this thread, I'm fucking done here, I've done my best to help support and generate some interest in this forum over the last few months, and its just not worth the time or bother just to walk away frustrated again, AGAIN. Originally Posted by Devo

Trust me, the time is better spent elsewhere on vastly more important and rewarding things.

This discussion was going good, hope the mods let it run it's course. Besides the great one(Roberto Clemente), my favorite bucco was Smokey Burgess. Under current ownership, I doubt that either of them would have stayed in the burgh for very long. It's a shame that Pittsburgh has the best park to watch a game(great view of dahntahn), minor league caliber roster.