Of course not. What the gun law advocates are conveniently overlooking is that banning guns on campus didn't stop him from carrying on campus. Originally Posted by 78704First, is there a law that said he could not carry an AK-47 over his shoulder on the UT campus? In all honesty I do not know the answer, but I don't think there is such a law. Correct me if I'm wrong. From all the new coverage on Tuesday's incident, Tooley did not break a law until he ran from police. There is a law that states a student can't carry a CONCEALED weapon on the UT campus. But we all know that laws can be broken at any time. What the law can do is prevent law-abiding people from carrying a concealed handgun on the campus. If a student at UT wants to carry a concealed weapon and risk expulsion from the school if caught, that is the risk that he or she takes. I can carry a concealed handgun at my work site, but if caught I will certainly be fired. Is that a risk I am willing to take. Not only "No" but "Hell no".
- SpeedRacerXXX
- 10-01-2010, 08:54 AM
- mj2749
- 10-01-2010, 08:57 AM
SpeedRacer,
" I do not fear being being attacked while out in public. If you or anyone else wants to worry about such things happening to you and live in fear of them happening, it is your right to arm yourself."
I think the case could be made that what you call not living in fear, others may choose to say is living in denial that it can't happen to you. What you call me living in "fear" may simply be a case of me choosing to be prepared. If I lived my life in "fear", I certainly would not have chosen to spend the last 6 years of my life running around Iraq and Afghanistan. I see people with a similar mentality as yours right here. Many people at the Embassy believe that Kabul is a safe city. They believe they don't need to be armed or need security while out. Recently 10 doctors were killed here. When villagers tried to warn them that they were in danger they stated: "We're doctors, we're here to help. We've been coming to Afghanistan for 25 years and no one has ever bothered us because they know who we are". I attended two of their funerals here a few weeks ago. They spoke Pashto, two had lived here for almost two decades without having any problems. Some of them even brought their families here, convinced that it was safe.
If we ever get the chance to sit down over a beer, I'll be glad to share with you my experiences in Austin and San Antonio Texas. It's not about "fear", it's about an awareness of what can happen and how fast it can happen even if you do everything "right". You are correct, for most people, the odds say that you may never be the victim of a crime.
"the odds a person twelve or older will be a victim of a personal crime (including violent crimes, robbery, and pickpocketing/purse snatching) in a year are 1 in 46.61, and the odds of being a victim of a violent crime are 1 in 48.36. The odds a household will be a victim of a property crime (including burglary, theft, and car theft) in a year are 1 in 6.83.
Now for burglaries, theft and car theft it's 1 in 6. Not sure I'd consider that "low" but here's the funny thing. Criminals don't choose you based on "odds". They don't count to 45 and then hit the 46th person. Yes you can minimize your chances by certain behaviors, avoiding certain parts of town, certain times of day and certain people etc.
Sorry to say, as I mentioned, too often even people who practice these steps still have the potential to become a victim as the shooting at UT demonstrates.
" I do not fear being being attacked while out in public. If you or anyone else wants to worry about such things happening to you and live in fear of them happening, it is your right to arm yourself."
I think the case could be made that what you call not living in fear, others may choose to say is living in denial that it can't happen to you. What you call me living in "fear" may simply be a case of me choosing to be prepared. If I lived my life in "fear", I certainly would not have chosen to spend the last 6 years of my life running around Iraq and Afghanistan. I see people with a similar mentality as yours right here. Many people at the Embassy believe that Kabul is a safe city. They believe they don't need to be armed or need security while out. Recently 10 doctors were killed here. When villagers tried to warn them that they were in danger they stated: "We're doctors, we're here to help. We've been coming to Afghanistan for 25 years and no one has ever bothered us because they know who we are". I attended two of their funerals here a few weeks ago. They spoke Pashto, two had lived here for almost two decades without having any problems. Some of them even brought their families here, convinced that it was safe.
If we ever get the chance to sit down over a beer, I'll be glad to share with you my experiences in Austin and San Antonio Texas. It's not about "fear", it's about an awareness of what can happen and how fast it can happen even if you do everything "right". You are correct, for most people, the odds say that you may never be the victim of a crime.
"the odds a person twelve or older will be a victim of a personal crime (including violent crimes, robbery, and pickpocketing/purse snatching) in a year are 1 in 46.61, and the odds of being a victim of a violent crime are 1 in 48.36. The odds a household will be a victim of a property crime (including burglary, theft, and car theft) in a year are 1 in 6.83.
Now for burglaries, theft and car theft it's 1 in 6. Not sure I'd consider that "low" but here's the funny thing. Criminals don't choose you based on "odds". They don't count to 45 and then hit the 46th person. Yes you can minimize your chances by certain behaviors, avoiding certain parts of town, certain times of day and certain people etc.
Sorry to say, as I mentioned, too often even people who practice these steps still have the potential to become a victim as the shooting at UT demonstrates.
- SpeedRacerXXX
- 10-01-2010, 11:08 AM
mj2749,
let's just say that you and I have very different outlooks on the need for carrying a handgun for personal protection. I may differ with you on the subject but I fully understand and accept your arguments. IMHO, each person should look at the FACTS and decide for themselves whether or not gun ownership makes sense. The fact is that only about 2% of eligible Texans have CHLs which would imply that very few of us believe as you do, or are just too lazy to go out and get a CHL.
I would appreciate you looking at the website www.neighborhoodscout.com/tx/austin/crime. I have no real reason for pointing to this website over any other website other than when I googled it was the first one to show the statistics. Personally I don't care about the crimes against property. Carrying a gun is not going to protect me against burglary, theft, or motor vehicle theft -- these crimes occur without the owner of the property being around to prevent the crime. I do worry about the violent crimes in the Austin area. Fact is, I really only worry about the murder rate and the assault rate, although I'm certain women would also worry about the rape rate.
The chances of a person being a victim of a a violent crime in Austin is 1 in 181. Not a low number. However, as I stated before, crime rates in Austin vary considerably by neighborhood. I live in NW Austin and crime rates are the safest in the city. And if such a map existed for violent crimes only, there would more than likely be a greater skew towards the violent crimes occuring in very specific areas. Do I worry about being a victim of robbery where I live -- not at all. When I am in central Austin I worry about it considerably more. But overall, while knowing that any person can be a victim of a violent crime, I choose to accept that possibility without arming myself.
And a question for those of you who have a handgun for protection.
According to the website cited, there were 3.96 murders in Austin per 100,000 population. In the state of Texas in 2007, there were 16.2 motor vehicle deaths per 100,000 population. So if you were REALLY interested in protecting yourself against an untimely death, wouldn't you stop driving a vehicle?
let's just say that you and I have very different outlooks on the need for carrying a handgun for personal protection. I may differ with you on the subject but I fully understand and accept your arguments. IMHO, each person should look at the FACTS and decide for themselves whether or not gun ownership makes sense. The fact is that only about 2% of eligible Texans have CHLs which would imply that very few of us believe as you do, or are just too lazy to go out and get a CHL.
I would appreciate you looking at the website www.neighborhoodscout.com/tx/austin/crime. I have no real reason for pointing to this website over any other website other than when I googled it was the first one to show the statistics. Personally I don't care about the crimes against property. Carrying a gun is not going to protect me against burglary, theft, or motor vehicle theft -- these crimes occur without the owner of the property being around to prevent the crime. I do worry about the violent crimes in the Austin area. Fact is, I really only worry about the murder rate and the assault rate, although I'm certain women would also worry about the rape rate.
The chances of a person being a victim of a a violent crime in Austin is 1 in 181. Not a low number. However, as I stated before, crime rates in Austin vary considerably by neighborhood. I live in NW Austin and crime rates are the safest in the city. And if such a map existed for violent crimes only, there would more than likely be a greater skew towards the violent crimes occuring in very specific areas. Do I worry about being a victim of robbery where I live -- not at all. When I am in central Austin I worry about it considerably more. But overall, while knowing that any person can be a victim of a violent crime, I choose to accept that possibility without arming myself.
And a question for those of you who have a handgun for protection.
According to the website cited, there were 3.96 murders in Austin per 100,000 population. In the state of Texas in 2007, there were 16.2 motor vehicle deaths per 100,000 population. So if you were REALLY interested in protecting yourself against an untimely death, wouldn't you stop driving a vehicle?
- 78704
- 10-01-2010, 11:10 AM
- mj2749
- 10-01-2010, 11:34 AM
Fair enough SpeedRacer, and I genuinely accept your reasons for not carrying. It is definitely a very personal choice and one that should not be made lightly. I will honestly say that I hope there's not too many CHL holders out there who don't further their training and constantly try to learn more and improve. As stated on other posts here, 10 hours certainly isn't enough to prepare people to make life and death decisions in an instant.
I've enjoyed this debate and hearing people's viewpoints.
I've enjoyed this debate and hearing people's viewpoints.
- SpeedRacerXXX
- 10-01-2010, 02:18 PM
mj,
good discussion. Maybe it will show others on ECCIE that people can disagree and still have a civil back-and-forth.
good discussion. Maybe it will show others on ECCIE that people can disagree and still have a civil back-and-forth.
- SpeedRacerXXX
- 10-01-2010, 03:00 PM
What benefit could there be to forbidding law-abiding people concealed carry? Originally Posted by 7870478704, I think the reasons for not allowing concealed handguns on college campuses has been covered quite well by myself and others, whether you agree with our opinions or not.
1. A person is a law-abiding citizen until he/she is not law-abiding. Tooley was a law-abiding citizen until last Tuesday morning. Major Hasan was a law-abiding citizen until he started killing people at Ft. Hood. Seung-Hui Cho was a law-abiding citizen until he started killing people at Va. Tech.
When you put a gun into anyone's hands, there is a possibility, however slight, that the gun will be used in the commission of a crime. Look at the website on crimes committed by CHL holders. While I certainly admit that the number is very, very, very low compared to the number of CHL holders, it is far from zero.
2. I remember (vaguely) being 21 and I personally would not have wanted to have a gun in my possession at that age. Have a few drinks, get into a heated argument, and it is very easy to pull out the gun and start firing. Unlikely scenario, yes, but certainly possible. A number of years ago someone I know at work (white-collar) came back from lunch after having a few drinks and punched his manager. Who knows what would have happened had he been carrying a gun.
3. How would you like to give an "F" grade to a student who might be packing? Or fire an employee who might be packing? Not me.
4. In 2008 on the UT-Austin campus, there were exactly 0 murders, 0 manslaughters, 1 forcible rape, 2 aggravated assaults and 6 robberies. (Source: www.ope.ed.gov/security/InstList.aspx). So a total of 9 serious crimes against a student population of over 50,000. Now I am not going to argue with anyone who would say it is not a minor statistic if you were one of the victims. The question is whether or not allowing concealed handguns on campus would make the serious crime statistics better or worse. My opinion is worse, as is the opinion of the UT-Austin administration.