real jobs thread

Well it wasn't for taking the government money, but the entire management team at Lehman & Bear Stearns were out without any golden parachutes. One of the conditions of getting TARP money was getting rid of those agreements for top management. Further, Wall Street lost more jobs than Detroit.* I know how you hate to let facts get in the way of your rants. Originally Posted by pjorourke

Moral Hazard.

Nuff said but I will add that AIG paid those poor Wall Street saps plenty of $ to pay back their TARP loans and then back to bonus city. Follow the money PJ.

* "The financial crisis took a heavy toll on Wall Street. Nearly 200,000 financial professionals lost their jobs in New York alone—500,000 nationwide." - http://www.cnbc.com/id/35566066/Life_After_Wall_Street_For_Man y_Job_Loss_Brings_Big_Changes

For comparison, the big 3 UAW automakers employ about 250,000 in the US. Originally Posted by pjorourke

Again, I never said anything good about the UAW just like I never said anything bad about returning WWII vets. I said they were part of a booming middle class after WWII. The GI Bill remember? That ruinious bill that expanded access to college and home ownership! LOL Both showed ''self discipline or ability to defer gratification'' , how come then only the UAW catches hell from you?

The auto workers at least made something tangible...the FIRE sold a lie, they needed corrupt credit agencies to sell their lie along with a string of other snake oil salesman.

Defending Snake Oil Salesman must be more profitable than it should be!

The good thing about being the USA and having everyone coupled to us is that we are the one to big to fail, countries are scrambling to decouple from that quandry. Finance has been lucky in that regard.

Thinking about this ... there is sort of fantasy and then reality.

Technically speaking, I think what I said earlier is true. Practically anyone can afford even the most expensive of providers if he has a source of income, is frugal, saves and postpones gratification.

But the reality is we are a nation full of people in debt up to their ears. People buy all kinds of crap. Their homes are full of crap. They buy crap just for amusement and even worse they often buy it on credit. As a result, the slack in their budgets is minimal.

In addition, there are some cold hard facts of reality pertaining to what I would call "ostentation." Studies show that the brand of car a guy drives makes a serious material difference in the way women react. Other studies show that when a woman believes a man has more wealth, she has more and better orgasms. I totally hate to report this as it tends to confirm some negative stereotypes but that's what studies say.

Thing is, just as studies say that men react to blond hair the same way even when they know it is from a bottle, it is the *appearances* that matter more than the underlying reality.

And men react to the reality many times by adopting what I'd call "the trappings of wealth." Sometimes they even adopt the trappings on credit. As a result they leverage themselves into oblivion.

The savings rate in this country is little short of abyssmal.

So the reality, unfortunately, is that the guy bagging groceries is not about to book a session with a provider charging $400 much less $4000. He's too busy spending what he makes and stuff he doesn't need because of artificially generated wants. Same applies pretty much across the board.

I mean, just walk into any store and look. LOOK. That stuff is stocked because it sells, and most of it is nearly worthless.

You want to know what that CD player you paid $100 for (or however much) is actually worth? Put it on ebay as a used item and see what kind of bids you get. Odds are, it isn't even worth the shipping cost. Go to any yard sale. Look at the stuff they can't even get rid of for 50 cents or a dollar and will end up putting in a dumpster. Somewhere along the line they paid good money for that stuff. Some of it they may still be paying for on credit. And there it is ... worthless.

So because of the pervasive nature of dumb spending, I would strongly suspect that hobbying in general is not an attraction for any man whose income falls below the median ($46k). I really think most hobbyists have to be in the top 5% of earners. The bottom edge of that, incidentally, is $154k. Not exactly huge bucks.

To figure out what guys making that much or more for a living actually do for work, just go into some place like salary.com and do some digging. Lawyers, doctors, college professors, stock brokers, business owners, upper management and stuff like that. Originally Posted by Laurentius

I agree with several of your points, but take issue with a few:

1) The "bagger" not participating in the biz...: I'll go back to my OP & contention that it is not about income but discretionary income. What do our enlisted military men make? A hell of a lot less than 46K but (at least for the single ones) it is almost all discretionary. They represent a very active participant in the adult entertainment industry, including escorts, if not HDHs

2) I'll agree with your contention that many folks in the middle income class lack the discipline to save to prioritize for that occasional provider business, but I take issue with the stuff they buy is all junk. Just because it depreciates tremendously doesn't make it junk. Two things are going on: one) shows there is value in our distribution/retail systems and advertising/retail space/websites/brand building cost money to build; two) the consume has gotten some utility out of the what they bought. Hopefully in the say two or so years since you bought that toaster oven, hopefully you've gotten some use out of it. Even though you only got 10 cents on the $ back for it at your garage sale, hopefully you don't feel like it was a waste.

Further, broadly speaking our economy is an experience-based one. Every month most of us pay a cable bill, ISP bill, mobile phone data plan, maybe netfilx...not to mention eating out, entertainment, etc. what about a vacation? (I am purposely leaving out neccessities like basic food, shelter, transportation). Point is very little of what most people buy in any given month is worth anything or has a liquid market for its resale at anything close to wholesale.

Afterall, what is an HDH but a glorious experience? After it is over what do you have but the memories? You don't have an "asset" you can resell at a yard sale...

I'll agree with you on #1. Discretionary income is key.

On #2, we agree some and disagree some.

I don't own a TV, but studies say the average American spends 35 hours a week in front of the tube -- so I have to agree that to a large extent we have, at the consumer level, an experience-based economy; or perhaps more aptly described a "watching other people's experience"-based economy. lol

I also agree that to some degree people derive utility from what they buy. Like when I buy a wrench. I use it a lot. Even if I'd have a hard time selling it at a yardsale, I've derived value from it that was greater than I spent.

But on the other hand, a great deal of what people buy is worthless junk. Even if it weren't worthless, it is arguable that the utility they derive is less than they spent, especially if they bought it on credit.

For example, and I hate to pick on anyone, have you ever met someone who had clothes in their closet that still had the tags on? LOTS of clothes that still had the tags on? Shoes purchased two years ago that have never been worn? Clothes three years old still in the bag? That's the result of shopping for entertainment. At least if your income isn't too high you can deduct a fraction of its cost when donating it.

Guys can be just as bad. How many guys have rifles in their gun safe that they have only shot once or twice in a matter of a decade? They will dump gobs and gobs into something like reloading, and maybe reload 20 rounds a year. And when they go to get rid of the gear, it is worth maybe 10 cents on the dollar.

People witness advertising and experience advertising-created demand for things they never knew existed before seeing the ads. Maybe some of the stuff isn't junk, but it is likely un-needed.

People do crazy stuff. I know a guy who takes home $2k/month with a $700 car payment. Insane.

So I largely agree with your corrections, so amend to agree that some stuff isn't junk; but the utility equation is iffy in too many cases.

I agree with several of your points, but take issue with a few:

1) The "bagger" not participating in the biz...: I'll go back to my OP & contention that it is not about income but discretionary income. What do our enlisted military men make? A hell of a lot less than 46K but (at least for the single ones) it is almost all discretionary. They represent a very active participant in the adult entertainment industry, including escorts, if not HDHs

2) I'll agree with your contention that many folks in the middle income class lack the discipline to save to prioritize for that occasional provider business, but I take issue with the stuff they buy is all junk. Just because it depreciates tremendously doesn't make it junk. Two things are going on: one) shows there is value in our distribution/retail systems and advertising/retail space/websites/brand building cost money to build; two) the consume has gotten some utility out of the what they bought. Hopefully in the say two or so years since you bought that toaster oven, hopefully you've gotten some use out of it. Even though you only got 10 cents on the $ back for it at your garage sale, hopefully you don't feel like it was a waste.

Further, broadly speaking our economy is an experience-based one. Every month most of us pay a cable bill, ISP bill, mobile phone data plan, maybe netfilx...not to mention eating out, entertainment, etc. what about a vacation? (I am purposely leaving out neccessities like basic food, shelter, transportation). Point is very little of what most people buy in any given month is worth anything or has a liquid market for its resale at anything close to wholesale.

Afterall, what is an HDH but a glorious experience? After it is over what do you have but the memories? You don't have an "asset" you can resell at a yard sale... Originally Posted by atlcomedy