What is sin and mans relation to God?

Various. King James, Revised, New English.
Originally Posted by essence

No. Those are translations of the Protestant Bible. I didn't read the rest of your post beyond this because you don't even know there are three Christian Bibles: Eastern Orothodox, Catholic and Prodistant. The 10 Commandments aren't even the same in all three Bibles. Go learn your history then talk to me about the subject. It's all in the history.

No. Those are translations of the Protestant Bible. I didn't read the rest of your post beyond this because you don't even know there are three Christian Bibles: Eastern Orothodox, Catholic and Prodistant. The 10 Commandments aren't even the same in all three Bibles. Go learn your history then talk to me about the subject. It's all in the history. Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

The 10 Commandments aren't even the same in all three Bibles!
The 10 Commandments aren't even the same in all three Bibles!

Someone alert the Pope, I mean when they get a new one.

What about the Septuagint?

Your arguments give elementary a bad name.

What about all the murder and mayhem scriptures relating
to Christianity, you know, the ones where Paul says, kill an
infidel a day and keep the wrath of God away. And Jesus
that homicidal maniac, I'm still waiting.

The 10 Commandments aren't even the same in all three Bibles!
The 10 Commandments aren't even the same in all three Bibles!

Someone alert the Pope, I mean when they get a new one.

What about the Septuagint?

Your arguments give elementary a bad name.

What about all the murder and mayhem scriptures relating
to Christianity, you know, the ones where Paul says, kill an
infidel a day and keep the wrath of God away. And Jesus
that homicidal maniac, I'm still waiting. Originally Posted by bojulay

Elementry? How so?

We were talking about Christanity and the Christian Bibles not translations of the Torah.

I never said Jesus was a bad man. I said Saul was. I said Christians have killed more people than both world wars - the Crudades, the Inquisition, witch hunts,etc. Stop reading what you want me to say and read what I said. But now we've gotten to the heart of what you've been dieing to get on with: infadels. Rant on with your paradoxes and Muslims.................I'll be here in the morning. Nightie-night.

Christianity was not original. It is basically recycled sun-worship, similar to Mithraism. While I believe Jesus was an actual person, who did many wonderful things, the legends that have arisen around him mirror the sun-worship of Mithras, Horus, and others.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/inv...e-mithras.html

Christianity was not original. It is basically recycled sun-worship, similar to Mithraism. While I believe Jesus was an actual person, who did many wonderful things, the legends that have arisen around him mirror the sun-worship of Mithras, Horus, and others.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/inv...e-mithras.html Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I agree. It seems evident that Jesus existed and that he was a freat teacher.

I also agree that religions are recycled. The Romans used to adopt and incorporate conquered peoples' Gods. It kept the piece, and to them the more the merrier. But even the tolerant Romans couldn't find peace with the young religion forming. The Empire had to split even before Christianity could t'e hold and be accepted. But let's face it Consitine held a vote to determine if Jesus was a God, and he didn't accept Christianity until the end of his life for political reasons.

So which god told us to go out and fuck each others, covet our neighbors spouse and engage in professional debauchery?

I didn't read the rest of your post ..... you don't even know there are three Christian Bibles: Eastern Orothodox, Catholic and Prodistant. . Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

I don't think you critically read and inwardly digest anything.

I think you missed 101 in logic.

At what point, when I said which versions I had read (from the top of my head) did I say that these are the only translations available or the only ones I have read?

I am going to a bookshop later today and will pick up Freeman's book if I find it, and explain to you how he has distorted Paul by selective quotes out of context.

I have also read some St Augustine, and his philosophy of time has not been bettered until Einstein. If you bothered, you will also find he was heavily influenced by neo platonists.

Carry on being spoon fed wth new age rubbish, it's so easy.

The following passage from 1 Corinthians can be misinterpreted as a rant against Greek philosophy, but can also be seen as a diatribe against a certain type of clever clogs/scribes, and I see it as entirely consistent with jesus' teaching, first shall be last etc.

The interplay between Greek philosophy and early Christian thought is well known.

When you look at our current financial crisis, I think the phrase 'Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?' is very pertinent.

You can also see this passage as an excellent motivational speech for those who were unsure of their faith, did not have the ability to argue with the clever clogs.

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[a] to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[b] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being[c] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him[d] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

You seem to think that believing in God is inherently stupid. There are lots of really intelligent people that believe in God; many of them are far smarter than you. You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea so completely. Originally Posted by joe bloe

Yeah that's part of why I personally find religion so facinating. There are many intelligent people who I respect that believe in one religion or the other. What makes people believe in what they do? (and conversely, what makes them not believe?)

I admit, many times I feel it'd be easier for me if I believed in some religion, but I simply don't think there's anything out there (although I acknowledge the possibility of its existence). Sweet cold oblivion for me when I die!

So which god told us to go out and fuck each others, covet our neighbors spouse and engage in professional debauchery? Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Aphrodite, Ishtar, Bacchus, Freyja, Venus, etc. Plenty of sex/fertility goddesses out there - take your pick

Going back to the original topic, sin and man's relation to God, and also following up the discussion wrt Greek philosophy, I cam e across this link which seems useful.

It also illustrates the dangers of quoting and misinterpreting scripture.

Something I saw yesterday seemed to say the Paul or somebody justified slavery, because of something he said about sin. That is nonsense - he was talking about a personal slavery, such as how drug adiction causes slavery. The ability of rampant atheists to distort scrpture knows no bounds.

It's like I remember an alcoholic once telling me 'jesus wanted children to suffer, he said 'suffer little children''. You don;t know where to start with that kind of argument.

All this anti christian nonsense almost makes me go back to my Christian roots, which I semi rejected many years ago.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/gkphilo.htm

I was going to cut and paste, but the article is long. It discusses Greek influence, and discusses original sin and misunderstandings thereof. It discusses misinterpretations of St Paul.

It's like I remember an alcoholic once telling me 'jesus wanted children to suffer, he said 'suffer little children''. You don;t know where to start with that kind of argument.. Originally Posted by essence

we get arguments like the around here all day every day!

Elementry? How so?

We were talking about Christanity and the Christian Bibles not translations of the Torah.

I never said Jesus was a bad man. I said Saul was. I said Christians have killed more people than both world wars - the Crudades, the Inquisition, witch hunts,etc. Stop reading what you want me to say and read what I said. But now we've gotten to the heart of what you've been dieing to get on with: infadels. Rant on with your paradoxes and Muslims.................I'll be here in the morning. Nightie-night. Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

For several centuries Christianity had no state support. It was not until late in the 4th century AD (380) that the Romans adopted Christianity as the state religion; thus, during its incipient decades, Christianity’s missionaries converted believers through personal evangelism alone without any form of state coercion. BTW, the Romans were not "tolerant"; they demanded obeisance to their pantheon of gods, and Christians were notoriously persecuted by the Romans. By the time Rome (btw, Rome was not "fractured" at that time: it was still united) adopted Christianity as the state religion, Christianity had remarkably spread from Jerusalem – without state support – east to India, south to Ethiopia, west to Hispania and north to the Britannia.

The Crusades were Christian Europe’s commercial, political and military response to Islamic (Turkish) militancy in the 11th century. Islam, btw, had already been hammering at the gates of Byzantium since the 7th century.

The infamous Spanish Inquisition lasted for a little over 350 years. In all of that time it is estimated that only some 3,000 and 5,000 souls were executed because of the Inquisition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#cite_note-87

Christianity has now been around for about two thousand years. Meanwhile, 62 million died in the U.S.S.R. under atheistic, communist rule, and approximately another 40 million died in China during the revolution and during Mao’s atheistic, communist reign. Twenty-nine million were killed during WWII (source: Rudolph J. Rummel, Death by Government, 2010).

Here’s another tidbit: the first documented instance of biological warfare occurred at Kaffa in 1346 where an Islamic Mongol army led by Janibeg Khan hurled plague infected bodies over Kaffa’s fortress walls into the midst of the defending Genoese Christians. From there, by way of Genoese galleys, the plague found its way to Sicily and then to Europe. Between 1347 and 1353 the Black Death carried away some 33% to 50% of the extant population. Depending on the source, some 20 to 50 million Christian Europeans died. Conscientious monks and priests were especially susceptible, because they were the ones who attempted to nurse and succor the sick and dying. Jews also suffered excessively in that, in addition to the disease, they were wrongly blamed and widely persecuted for originating the contagion. It would take Europe 150 years to recover its population (wiki).

No comments about your continence, here, man. I'm just trying to understand the point you're trying to make. I read your post and you're discussing neither sin nor man's relationship to God. Seems like you're just trying to stir it up with the lovely Olivia...

Thanks for the research and info. Aside from the history lesson, are you trying to make a point in this discussion?

Your post talks about how fewer people the Inquisition murdered in the Middle Ages versus the millions killed by communists in Russia and China in the 20th Century. Then you say the Black Death killed off up to half of the European population ... AFTER non-Christians flung infected bodies over the walls at Kaffa. Oddly, there was no mention of the slaughters wrought by the Crusades. Or what percentage of the killing in any of the World Wars was done by Christian soldiers.

OK, if so, then this helps put sin and man's relationship to God in perspective how?

Little help here.

Thanks.

+6 FU

I don't think you critically read and inwardly digest anything.

I think you missed 101 in logic. Originally Posted by essence

I'm sorry what? I don't agree with you so I must be ignorant? You're a Christian and you like black hookers. I can inwardly digest that. You may have read a Bible, but you seem to have no recollection of what you read or you are going on what you've been told by people that profit from the Word. Let's look at one of Jesus' most beautiful works: the Sermon on the Mount. Let's explore the Beatitudes that you've ignored in this one statement.

• Not very meek of you.
• Not very merciful
• Not much of a peacemaker
• And you seem to want to persecute me for my beliefs

At what point, when I said which versions I had read (from the top of my head) did I say that these are the only translations available or the only ones I have read? Originally Posted by essence

To take a leaf from your book, I'll say you're either stupid, ignorant, or in this case, both. The different Bibles are translated from different base languages, the Old Testament has different numbers of books in it, the Ten Commandments are different and these are just the things I can think of off the top of my head. The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant Bibles are the different Bibles.

From there we get into different translations and different philosophies. For instance:

• How can people that read the same Protestant Bible, and translation, and believe things that are SO FUNDAMENTALLY different. The Baptists believe you cannot fall from Grace and the Methodists do.
  
• Catholics believe, and this is HUGE, we are free to do good and evil; Protestants believe we are only free to do evil.
• Grace can be conveyed through deeds and faith; Protestant through faith only.
  
• The Eastern Orthodox does not believe in Original Sin and that all of man is intrinsically guilty at birth and consequentially, they don't hold the Holy Virgin in such esteem as the Catholics (And Protestants don't at all.).
• The Eastern Orthodox church doesn't believe in a Church hierarchy nor does it believe it is part of the State. Maybe that's why the Eastern Orthodox didn't have the mass and serial murders the Catholic and Protestant sects did.

So the question, what Bible did you read matters. These are just the things that come to me from off the top of my head.

I am going to a bookshop later today and will pick up Freeman's book if I find it, and explain to you how he has distorted Paul by selective quotes out of context. Originally Posted by essence

Go ahead; get your book. It will be based on glowing and derranged recommendations from very imperfectly translated versions of the Protestant (I'm assuming being that you are British.) Bible. The Old Testament was translated from Hebrew (Which it was written) which is good, but the New Testemant was written in mostly Aramaic but the translations were done from Greek. Good luck.

Further, look at the HISTORY of the Bible's development. It has changed, and changed, and changed through the years as motive changed and necessity demanded. Read the HISTORY of the times along with your Bible.

I have also read some St Augustine, and his philosophy of time has not been bettered until Einstein. If you bothered, you will also find he was heavily influenced by neo platonists. Originally Posted by essence

St Augustine referred to Reason as Sinful Curiosity. He fucking dog cussed Greek philosophy, and he oppressed reason with a zeal. Read your history.

Carry on being spoon fed wth new age rubbish, it's so easy. Originally Posted by essence

New Age LOL; I'm a Jew by Choice. About as far away from New Age as you can get. I'll have to go back to what I said to the OP, read what I've said not what you think I said. I said I've been a militant Zionist all my life and the constant worship of Jesus as a God in the Christian Chruch turned me into a premature atheist at the age of 11.

The following passage from 1 Corinthians can be misinterpreted as a rant against Greek philosophy, but can also be seen as a diatribe against a certain type of clever clogs/scribes, and I see it as entirely consistent with jesus' teaching, first shall be last etc.

The interplay between Greek philosophy and early Christian thought is well known. Originally Posted by essence

I've drawn this correlation earlier in the thread. As I said earlier, I suggest reading, "The Closing of the Western Mind".

When you look at our current financial crisis, I think the phrase 'Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?' is very pertinent. Originally Posted by essence

More judging? Probably more like Setting Sun sour grapes. American's getting what we've sown?

You can also see this passage as an excellent motivational speech for those who were unsure of their faith, did not have the ability to argue with the clever clogs. Originally Posted by essence

Admit it; you read Joel Osteen don't you.

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[a] to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[b] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being[c] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him[d] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” Originally Posted by essence

This passage is littered with Jesus being a God. And as such, I reject it wholly as blaspheme, and I completely reject Saul's writings because I completely reject his motive.

No comments about your continence, here, man. I'm just trying to understand the point you're trying to make. I read your post and you're discussing neither sin nor man's relationship to God. Seems like you're just trying to stir it up with the lovely Olivia...

Thanks for the research and info. Aside from the history lesson, are you trying to make a point in this discussion?

Your post talks about how fewer people the Inquisition murdered in the Middle Ages versus the millions killed by communists in Russia and China in the 20th Century. Then you say the Black Death killed off up to half of the European population ... AFTER non-Christians flung infected bodies over the walls at Kaffa. Oddly, there was no mention of the slaughters wrought by the Crusades. Or what percentage of the killing in any of the World Wars was done by Christian soldiers.

OK, if so, then this helps put sin and man's relationship to God in perspective how?

Little help here.

Thanks. Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Each paragraph in that post directly addresses and contextualizes an historically incorrect statement made by OH -- including a paragraph about the Crusades being defensive wars against Islamic jihad. You don't understand, Assup the jackass, because you are a golem: a brainless amalgamation of animated piss and shit.

BTW, cite where WWI and WWII were wars perpetrated under the banner of "Christianity", you puny pricked putz. OH's POV was that Christians killed more people than were killed during both World Wars, and that -- her -- reference was contextualized.