Pretty much. And it will stay there until WTF learns how to participate in a discussion. Originally Posted by pjorourkeSeriously PJ, you are starting to sound like a left coast elitist.
- WTF
- 10-10-2010, 07:30 PM
- discreetgent
- 10-10-2010, 07:42 PM
. btw as the law reads in Texas my parents could have been charged with beating me and subject to 20 years in prison. [/I][/B] Originally Posted by WTFNah, no jury would have convicted. They would have concluded that what your parents did was in the best interest of society
(tongue in cheek: as I have posted elsewhere I don't use corporal punishment, I believe it teaches kids that hitting is ok)
- WTF
- 10-10-2010, 09:43 PM
Nah, no jury would have convicted. They would have concluded that what your parents did was in the best interest of society Originally Posted by discreetgentLOL, wasn't just parents, teachers beat your ass back then too.
Two things, I do not believe that the act of corporal punishment teaches kids that hitting is ok. Or at least in my case it didn't.
(tongue in cheek: as I have posted elsewhere I don't use corporal punishment, I believe it teaches kids that hitting is ok) Originally Posted by discreetgent
I believe that good honest teachers and parents can disagree on how to discipline kids. That is exactly why judges need leeway. What were the circumstances? Is there an pattern of abuse? All kinds of questions that need to be addressed without a set sentence for everyone being the same. Society is not served by unjust sentencing. We are also now at a point in this country where we as a society need to start looking at cost, which was really the point of this thread. Sorry for getting caught up in the minutia of the history of beating your kids ass!
- Sisyphus
- 10-11-2010, 01:26 PM
+ 1. Having met Olivia in the flesh I'd easily say that she's even prettier than her pics....which is something given how cool those pics are.Agreed! Lovely lady! Great conversationalist!
C Originally Posted by Camille
Can knock 'em back with the best of 'em, too! 
BTW, it takes to know, C! Sorry I missed your last [Sniff, sniff... say it ain't so!] trip to our neck of the woods! Take care!!
- Camille
- 10-11-2010, 02:42 PM
Good to "see" you posting on here though 
C xx
C xx
- Guest050715-1
- 10-13-2010, 03:14 PM
DAYUM!!!!! Olivia, luv the new website and pics!!! Originally Posted by charlestudor2005
+ 1. Having met Olivia in the flesh I'd easily say that she's even prettier than her pics....which is something given how cool those pics are. Originally Posted by Camille
A girl goes outta town and misses two beautiful compliments! Thank you and besos to both of you! BTW, Camille is quite the lovely lady as well. I think it’s too late in life for me to try to grow some legs like hers………..too bad.
C Originally Posted by Camille
Really? Here are some examples of Child Endangerment. It is in fact the perfect example as to why judges should have sentencing discretion:Ok, Ok…….I concede. I never considered some of those things. You know I hate to be wrong
What are Examples of Child Endangerment?
The states differ as to what constitutes child endangerment, but some common examples include:
What are the Penalties for Endangering a Child?
- Leaving a child unattended in a motor vehicle
- Driving while intoxicated with a child in the motor vehicle
- Hiring a person with a known history of sexual offenses as a childcare provider
- Serving alcohol to an underage driver
- Leaving a young child unsupervised or in the care of another young child
- Unreasonable corporal punishment resulting in bodily injury
- Drug manufacturing in the presence of a child
- Leaving a young child unsupervised in an unsafe area
- Failure to report suspected child abuse
The penalties for endangering a child vary from state to state but can be very severe:
- California: Imprisonment for up to 6 years
- Illinois: Imprisonment for up to 10 years
- New York: Imprisonment for up to 1 year
- Texas: Imprisonment for up to 20 years
Nobody from the right ever say anything about regressive local taxes. That is and always will be my point.
They think all Frderal taxes should be lowered except poor people's. For some strange reason they think theirs should be raised. Originally Posted by WTF
. But I do go on to say that the cost of removing a bread winning parent, or something else I can’t remember member of society should be considered too. Cost of warehousing criminals, AND the cost to society for removing productive people should both be considered. Also, maybe there needs to be guidelines that are varying degrees of Endangerment of a Child. That’s an option too.
- atlcomedy
- 10-13-2010, 04:11 PM
Ignoring child endangement as a specific example but speaking to considering cost in general, the above is a huge point. Not only the direct cost of incarceration and even the direct cost of care for the child(ren), but the cycle of poverty it perpetuates. The Mark Ingrams of the world (Daddy in the pen but he got a free ride to Alabama and will get millions in the NFL on the basis of his ability to run a football) are the vast minority out there...
Ok, Ok…….I concede. I never considered some of those things. You know I hate to be wrong
Of course that said...it assumes the (in most cases) father was a positive influence in the rearing of his sperm donations, financially or otherwise. If not the above logic is moot...
- angelinadream
- 10-13-2010, 05:25 PM
just a few words!
Chop Chop Block - Fast and Efficient. Although Shariah law is used, we could have our own laws be as efficient as chop chop block. MUCH less crime. I do not condone the cutting off of a child's arm for stealing or any form of Shariah law. What if just what if, we had chop chop block in every city and punishments were doled out weekly. A few months of that and society would certainly change. I would only apply it to violent crimes and crimes against children.
I know the argument of Ghandi -" if this world was truly an eye for an eye, we would all be blind". Maybe for one generation but the next generation surely would have both eyes and less crime......
Chop Chop Block - Fast and Efficient. Although Shariah law is used, we could have our own laws be as efficient as chop chop block. MUCH less crime. I do not condone the cutting off of a child's arm for stealing or any form of Shariah law. What if just what if, we had chop chop block in every city and punishments were doled out weekly. A few months of that and society would certainly change. I would only apply it to violent crimes and crimes against children.
I know the argument of Ghandi -" if this world was truly an eye for an eye, we would all be blind". Maybe for one generation but the next generation surely would have both eyes and less crime......
- charlestudor2005
- 10-13-2010, 06:32 PM
just a few words!Instead of copying the Middle East, why not just go back in our own history. Let's see, we have the stocks and the scarlet letter. Yeah, I think we should go there, especially since the whole system, somewhat like Shariah law is run by the religious zealots.
Chop Chop Block - Fast and Efficient. Although Shariah law is used, we could have our own laws be as efficient as chop chop block. MUCH less crime. I do not condone the cutting off of a child's arm for stealing or any form of Shariah law. What if just what if, we had chop chop block in every city and punishments were doled out weekly. A few months of that and society would certainly change. I would only apply it to violent crimes and crimes against children. Originally Posted by angelinadream
And let's not forget, religious zealots tend to go after sins rather than crimes. So, those of us in the hobby will suffer the most. darn.
- Guest083011
- 10-13-2010, 09:02 PM
From today's Hartford Courant focusing on the defense proffered by Steven Hayes' attorneys:
http://www.courant.com/community/new...,1526709.story
CITING REPORTS
Hayes Team: No Savings In Executions
By ALAINE GRIFFIN
NEW HAVEN — Steven Hayes’ defense attorneys, in a bid to spare his life, say they have evidence that counters “the popular assumption that the cost of executing someone saves the state money” compared with a life sentence.
They cite reports that offer these statistics: In Tennessee, death sentences in murder cases cost 48 percent more than life sentences.
In Washington state, death penalty cases cost $470,000 more in defense and prosecution costs than non-capital murder cases.
In North Carolina, it costs $2.16 million per execution more than it costs for a non-capital defendant sentenced to life in prison.
These are among the reports that they are expected to put forth today in their fight to convince a Superior Court judge that he should let them use the unusual strategy of arguing economic reasons to keep the convicted triple murderer off death row. The defense claims that sparing Hayes’ life will save the state and taxpayers “many millions of dollars.”
In a legal memo filed Tuesday, the defense lawyers said recent polls show that support for the death penalty “drops off dramatically” when people learn of the cost difference between executions and housing a convicted killer for life.
The defense plans to call an expert who has written a report about what Connecticut spends on executions vs. life sentences. Its memo says the testimony could be “for purpose of mitigation or as support” for Hayes’ pretrial offers to plead guilty “or for re-butting the intuitive common understanding by the public, and therefore jurors that the imposition of the death penalty … is less expensive than life without the possibility of release.”
Today’s hearing is in preparation for next week’s penalty phase, in which jurors will decide whether Steven Hayes, 47, of Winsted, lives or dies for the July 23, 2007, killings of Jennifer Hawke-Petit and her daughters, Hayley,17, and Michaela, 11, during a break-in, robbery and arson at their Cheshire home.
New Haven Public Defender Thomas J. Ullmann and Patrick J. Culligan, head of the state Public Defender’s Office capital defense unit, said they want to use the expert testimony to support Hayes’ repeated offers to plead guilty to the slayings in exchange for a life sentence.
Hayes was convicted Oct. 5 of breaking into the Cheshire home of the Petit family in the middle of the night, beating Dr. William Petit Jr. and tying up the family as he and another man ransacked the home for cash and valuables. Testimony showed that at one point in the break-in, Hayes forced Hawke-Petit to go to the bank to withdraw money. During that time, according to testimony, the second defendant in the case, Joshua Komisarjevsky, sexually assaulted Michaela Petit.
When Hawke-Petit and Hayes returned from the bank, Hayes raped and strangled Hawke-Petit, and the house was doused with gasoline and set on fire as the intruders fled, testimony showed. Hayley and Michaela died of smoke inhalation. Of the 16 counts that Hayes was convicted of, six of those were capital felony charges, making him eligible for a death penalty hearing, which will begin Monday. .
Komisarjevsky, 30, of Cheshire, will be tried next year.
During the penalty phase, jurors will weigh mitigating factors against aggravating factors to determine if Hayes should be sentenced to death by lethal injection. Recent court filings show that the aggravating factors the state intends to prove are that Hayes killed Hawke-Petit and her daughters during the commission of or immediate flight from the commission of a felony — third-degree burglary — and that Hayes committed the murders in “an especially heinous, cruel or depraved manner” and “knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.”
Testimony about the cost of life in prison vs. death could be a mitigating factor for jurors to consider.
Prosecutors plan to argue against use of the expert testimony on the cost issue.
In legal papers, New Haven State’s Attorney Michael Dearington and Senior Assistant State’s Attorney Gary W. Nicholson say “the evidence of costs of execution is irrelevant and not mitigation evidence and such cost-benefit analysis of the death penalty is a matter of public policy for the legislature.”
Ullmann tried unsuccessfully to use a similar strategy in another capital case six years ago.
In that case, Ullmann filed a motion asking a judge to force the state to accept a plea bargain that would guarantee life in prison instead of a seat on death row for Jonathan Mills. Mills was convicted in 2004 of killing Kitty Kleinkauf, stabbing her more than 40 times, and of fatally stabbing her children Rachael Crum, 6, and Kyle Redway, 4, inside their Guilford home before stealing Kleinkauf’s credit card to buy cocaine.
To bolster his argument, Ullmann claimed that it would be more expensive to sentence Mills to death because a guilty plea would cut 10 to 15 years of legal wrangling and appeals that a death sentence would probably yield.
Judge Jon C. Blue, who is presiding over Hayes’ trial, denied Ullmann’s motion. The jury voted against executing Mills and sent him to prison for the rest of his life.
###
http://www.courant.com/community/new...,1526709.story
CITING REPORTS
Hayes Team: No Savings In Executions
By ALAINE GRIFFIN
NEW HAVEN — Steven Hayes’ defense attorneys, in a bid to spare his life, say they have evidence that counters “the popular assumption that the cost of executing someone saves the state money” compared with a life sentence.
They cite reports that offer these statistics: In Tennessee, death sentences in murder cases cost 48 percent more than life sentences.
In Washington state, death penalty cases cost $470,000 more in defense and prosecution costs than non-capital murder cases.
In North Carolina, it costs $2.16 million per execution more than it costs for a non-capital defendant sentenced to life in prison.
These are among the reports that they are expected to put forth today in their fight to convince a Superior Court judge that he should let them use the unusual strategy of arguing economic reasons to keep the convicted triple murderer off death row. The defense claims that sparing Hayes’ life will save the state and taxpayers “many millions of dollars.”
In a legal memo filed Tuesday, the defense lawyers said recent polls show that support for the death penalty “drops off dramatically” when people learn of the cost difference between executions and housing a convicted killer for life.
The defense plans to call an expert who has written a report about what Connecticut spends on executions vs. life sentences. Its memo says the testimony could be “for purpose of mitigation or as support” for Hayes’ pretrial offers to plead guilty “or for re-butting the intuitive common understanding by the public, and therefore jurors that the imposition of the death penalty … is less expensive than life without the possibility of release.”
Today’s hearing is in preparation for next week’s penalty phase, in which jurors will decide whether Steven Hayes, 47, of Winsted, lives or dies for the July 23, 2007, killings of Jennifer Hawke-Petit and her daughters, Hayley,17, and Michaela, 11, during a break-in, robbery and arson at their Cheshire home.
New Haven Public Defender Thomas J. Ullmann and Patrick J. Culligan, head of the state Public Defender’s Office capital defense unit, said they want to use the expert testimony to support Hayes’ repeated offers to plead guilty to the slayings in exchange for a life sentence.
Hayes was convicted Oct. 5 of breaking into the Cheshire home of the Petit family in the middle of the night, beating Dr. William Petit Jr. and tying up the family as he and another man ransacked the home for cash and valuables. Testimony showed that at one point in the break-in, Hayes forced Hawke-Petit to go to the bank to withdraw money. During that time, according to testimony, the second defendant in the case, Joshua Komisarjevsky, sexually assaulted Michaela Petit.
When Hawke-Petit and Hayes returned from the bank, Hayes raped and strangled Hawke-Petit, and the house was doused with gasoline and set on fire as the intruders fled, testimony showed. Hayley and Michaela died of smoke inhalation. Of the 16 counts that Hayes was convicted of, six of those were capital felony charges, making him eligible for a death penalty hearing, which will begin Monday. .
Komisarjevsky, 30, of Cheshire, will be tried next year.
During the penalty phase, jurors will weigh mitigating factors against aggravating factors to determine if Hayes should be sentenced to death by lethal injection. Recent court filings show that the aggravating factors the state intends to prove are that Hayes killed Hawke-Petit and her daughters during the commission of or immediate flight from the commission of a felony — third-degree burglary — and that Hayes committed the murders in “an especially heinous, cruel or depraved manner” and “knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.”
Testimony about the cost of life in prison vs. death could be a mitigating factor for jurors to consider.
Prosecutors plan to argue against use of the expert testimony on the cost issue.
In legal papers, New Haven State’s Attorney Michael Dearington and Senior Assistant State’s Attorney Gary W. Nicholson say “the evidence of costs of execution is irrelevant and not mitigation evidence and such cost-benefit analysis of the death penalty is a matter of public policy for the legislature.”
Ullmann tried unsuccessfully to use a similar strategy in another capital case six years ago.
In that case, Ullmann filed a motion asking a judge to force the state to accept a plea bargain that would guarantee life in prison instead of a seat on death row for Jonathan Mills. Mills was convicted in 2004 of killing Kitty Kleinkauf, stabbing her more than 40 times, and of fatally stabbing her children Rachael Crum, 6, and Kyle Redway, 4, inside their Guilford home before stealing Kleinkauf’s credit card to buy cocaine.
To bolster his argument, Ullmann claimed that it would be more expensive to sentence Mills to death because a guilty plea would cut 10 to 15 years of legal wrangling and appeals that a death sentence would probably yield.
Judge Jon C. Blue, who is presiding over Hayes’ trial, denied Ullmann’s motion. The jury voted against executing Mills and sent him to prison for the rest of his life.
###
- charlestudor2005
- 10-13-2010, 09:29 PM
What about Texas? Is it not listed because volume make the price go down?
- pjorourke
- 10-13-2010, 09:30 PM
In Hayes’ case, the extra expense is worth it.
- Guest083011
- 10-13-2010, 09:32 PM
Except I'd rather Hayes and Komisarjevsky be their prisons' glory holes for the rest of their rotten lives. Killing them just lets them off easy. These MF's should suffer. Every day of their misreable lives.
- angelinadream
- 10-14-2010, 11:25 AM
Instead of copying the Middle East, why not just go back in our own history. Let's see, we have the stocks and the scarlet letter. Yeah, I think we should go there, especially since the whole system, somewhat like Shariah law is run by the religious zealots.Government officials in that case. Leave religion out of it. Simply law. Crimes must fit the punishment ONLY OF IT IS VIOLENT! Not people like us. The killers child abusers.......
And let's not forget, religious zealots tend to go after sins rather than crimes. So, those of us in the hobby will suffer the most. darn. Originally Posted by charlestudor2005