Nuclear Weapons

1. Was dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki necessary and justified or unnecessary and unjustified?

Even Japan agrees that the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the right thing to do. They gave Japan an honorable excuse to surrender, rather than fight to the death even though the war was clearly lost. The late Emperor Hirohito has said as much.

2. Under what circumstances (if any) would the use of nuclear weapons be justified today?

For openers, I don't think that anyone will disagree with the idea that an attack with nuclear weapons, whether or not any of the weapons hit anything (as opposed to being shot down in flight) fully justifies a nuclear response. If the attack was fully successfully defended (not currently possible, but we are getting there, despite the Left's most desperate protestations that strategic defense is impossible), it MIGHT be reasonable to give the attacker one chance to surrender, unconditionally, before turning them into radioactive ash.

During the Cold War, the United States (and NATO) refused to sign up for the Soviet-pushed "No First Use" doctrine, because first use of tactical nuclear weapons was (and still is) the only feasible defense against a Soviet conventional attack into Western Europe. The conventional force numbers were (and still are) incredibly lopsided. The Soviets could line up a skirmish line from basically the Med to the Baltic, and head West, and the NATO conventional forces would be not much more than a speed bump. Under those conditions of asymmetry, the choices are starkly limited: surrender or nuclear response.

Today, it is doubtful that the Russian Federation and its allies would seriously consider mounting such an attack, but "doubtful" and even "unthinkable" are not the same as "It won't happen."

Second, in the days immediately following 9/11, nobody on the planet would have argued for a moment if the United States had turned Afghanistan into a radioactive glass parking lot. An attack similar to 9/11, launched by a nation in the control of thugs (as was the case in Afghanistan: the payroll records surfaced in a Kandahar safe house) would certainly justify and probably merit such a response. Originally Posted by Sidewinder
You are DEAD WRONG.

If you read McNamara you would know that General LeMay told him personally that the allied strategic bombing campaign was a major war crime. Everybody at the time knew that, and it was a major reason for the Nuremberg trials and the trial of General Yamashita.

The dropping of the atomic bombs DID NOT lead directly to the Japanese surrender. After the bombs were dropped the Japanese government didn't realize what had happened, and the US resumed firebombing operations. It wasn't until after Tokyo was firedbombed AFTER Nagasaki was nuked that the surrender finally came.

The entire story that the US was going to invade the Japanese home islands is a myth. The islands were surrounded and the whole place blockaded and cut off. They had no fuel, etc... US public opinion would never have held for huge casualities for such an unnecessary campaign and the real plan was to blockade, have small incursions, and starve them into a peace settlement. There would never have been hundreds of thousands of Americans sacrificed for the "unconditional surrender" that Americans didn't really support anyway.

There's about a dozen books written in the last years from de-classified archives about the real reasons for the decision to use the atomic bombs. It had more to do with just the momentum of the bombing campaign combined with political fear by Truman that he's be criticized if he didn't use all available weapons.

They just didn't understand at the time that the weapon would have such profoundly horrible results, and after the event Truman shrank in revulsion and spoke continually thereafter about how the bombs must never be used again.

And that is the truth, not stupid myths.
Munchmasterman's Avatar
You are a fucking moron, CBJ7. You give this same, fucking, flip response every time while knowing damn good and well that the individuals responsible for planning and implementing the 9/11 attacks against the U.S. resided in Afghanistan: not Saudi Arabia. As a matter of record, the U.S. similarly invaded Guadalcanal in WWII even though 100% of the Pearl Harbor attackers were from Japan!!! Originally Posted by I B Hankering
Watch your tone, bitch.

The indigenes population of Guadalcanal didn’t help the Japanese and our fight wasn’t with them. Why do you compare WWII and the limits of the available technology with the current war in Afghanistan?

A typical cog/whirly/u b sucking comparison.

We needed the island for an airfield. We took it. We also gave it back. Island hopping was the only method we had to attack Japan.

The guy you didn’t want killed was hiding in the mountains. We went in the front door and some moron in Washington let the Afghanis watch the back door. DUH!

Well, no thanks to the conservatives, we punched his ticket.
And for just $12.95 we can punch yours too!

You fucking douche bag.

As to the OP, my father went into Germany in March of 1945 with the 506th of the 82nd Airborne. Guess who would have gone into Japan first.

There is a good chance I am a direct result of the US nuking Japan.

PS Stop elbowing cog while he is sucking my dick. When have you not gotten more than your turn?

PPS I do not think you, whirly, or cog are gay. I take you at your word that you just like the taste of cock. Who am I to pass judgment on a bunch of flaming assholes?
Munchmasterman's Avatar
You are DEAD WRONG.

If you read McNamara you would know that General LeMay told him personally that the allied strategic bombing campaign was a major war crime. Everybody at the time knew that, and it was a major reason for the Nuremberg trials and the trial of General Yamashita.

The dropping of the atomic bombs DID NOT lead directly to the Japanese surrender. After the bombs were dropped the Japanese government didn't realize what had happened, and the US resumed firebombing operations. It wasn't until after Tokyo was firedbombed AFTER Nagasaki was nuked that the surrender finally came.

The entire story that the US was going to invade the Japanese home islands is a myth. The islands were surrounded and the whole place blockaded and cut off. They had no fuel, etc... US public opinion would never have held for huge casualities for such an unnecessary campaign and the real plan was to blockade, have small incursions, and starve them into a peace settlement. There would never have been hundreds of thousands of Americans sacrificed for the "unconditional surrender" that Americans didn't really support anyway.

There's about a dozen books written in the last years from de-classified archives about the real reasons for the decision to use the atomic bombs. It had more to do with just the momentum of the bombing campaign combined with political fear by Truman that he's be criticized if he didn't use all available weapons.

They just didn't understand at the time that the weapon would have such profoundly horrible results, and after the event Truman shrank in revulsion and spoke continually thereafter about how the bombs must never be used again.

And that is the truth, not stupid myths. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts
Truman shrank in revulsion? He never shrank from anything. He did what needed to be done.

You are a funny guy.

Stupid, but funny.
CuteOldGuy's Avatar
Yes, CBJ7, do watch your tone. We must all emulate Munchie's example of thoughtfulness and civility. I'm sure his insecurity about his own sexuality was just an accident, usually he hides it better than that.

As to the OP, my father went into Germany in March of 1945 with the 506th of the 82nd Airborne. Guess who would have gone into Japan first.

There is a good chance I am a direct result of the US nuking Japan.
Originally Posted by Munchmasterman
This really makes me laugh.

Everyone I meet with a father in the war says the same thing.

In reality there was no intention to invade the home islands. The notion that the bombs saved lives was invented well after they were dropped because doing so was a major war crime needing rationalization.

And for the last time....

The Japanese didn't surrender until the US resumed firebombing. It didn't happen right after the atom bombs were used like the ignorant American public sees on televsion.

Using the atom bomb IS NOT WHAT ENDED THE WAR.

The war was ended when the US agreed to NOT HAVE AN UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.

The war ended when the US agreed to keep the Emperor, a major war criminal, on the throne. That's what ended the war.
CuteOldGuy's Avatar
There is a good chance I am a direct result of the US nuking Japan.[/FONT][/FONT] Originally Posted by Munchmasterman
Well, Truman's legacy just went down the toilet.

I B Hankering's Avatar
Watch your tone, bitch.

The indigenes population of Guadalcanal didn’t help the Japanese and our fight wasn’t with them. Why do you compare WWII and the limits of the available technology with the current war in Afghanistan? Likewise, the U.S.' primary target in Afghanistan was al Qaeda and not indigenous Afghans.

A typical cog/whirly/u b sucking comparison. MasterDickMuncher, don't you find you are overly preoccupied with homoerotic fantasies?

We needed the island for an airfield. We took it. We also gave it back. Island hopping was the only method we had to attack Japan. You fucking moron, how does that substantively differ from the U.S. needing to invade Afghanistan in order to attack and neutralize al Qaeda? Hint: it doesn't, you ignorant jackass.

The guy you didn’t want killed was hiding in the mountains. We went in the front door and some moron in Washington let the Afghanis watch the back door. DUH! You are one ignorant jackass. All you did was sit on your fat-ass sucking down beer while scarfing up Cheetos, jackass.

Well, no thanks to the conservatives, we punched his ticket.
And for just $12.95 we can punch yours too!

You fucking douche bag. This seems to be one of your favorite phrases, MasterDickMuncher. No doubt your frequent reference to this item stems from your constant association with and use of this item.

As to the OP, my father went into Germany in March of 1945 with the 506th of the 82nd Airborne. Guess who would have gone into Japan first. The 11th Airborne Division, Army Engineers and the Marines.

There is a good chance I am a direct result of the US nuking Japan. Yeah, MasterDickMuncher, that would explain your genetic brain damage.

PS Stop elbowing cog while he is sucking my dick. When have you not gotten more than your turn?MasterDickMuncher, take your homoerotic fantasies elsewhere.

PPS I do not think you, whirly, or cog are gay. I take you at your word that you just like the taste of cock. Who am I to pass judgment on a bunch of flaming assholes? You've once again secured your position as the dumbest mutha fucker on the board, MasterDickMuncher. Originally Posted by Munchmasterman
.
Well, Truman's legacy just went down the toilet.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy
The US had already firebombed sixty Japanese cities by that time, and slaughter of the Japanese civilian population was already American policy.

No one knew how horrible the bomb was until it was actually used.

After it was used Truman spoke out continually against its use.

It was the reason why the US didn't attack Russia or China during the Korean War.

It's the reason why there wasn't a THIRD WORLD WAR.
I B Hankering's Avatar

Using the atom bomb IS NOT WHAT ENDED THE WAR.

The war was ended when the US agreed to NOT HAVE AN UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts
Bullshit, TAE! On August 15, 1945, Hirohito announced Japan's unconditional surrender to the Allies. That announcement was predicated on the destruction of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the Japanese armies in Manchuria. Stalin's August invasion of Manchuria, "August Storm", was predicated on the fact that the U.S. had atomic bombs which meant the U.S. might possibly conclude the Pacific War with no spoils going to the U.S.S.R.
Hankering and Munchmaster,

The fact that either of you would still believe that the US invasion of Afghanistan was to destroy "al-Qaeda" evidences how gullable and silly your notions are on these matters.

No one with any knowledge believes that "al-Qaeda" ever even existed in 2001 other than as a myth of the US, which subsequently became a rallying cry for the resistance.

Until 2001 Osama bin-Laden never heard of the term "al-Qaeda," and only adopted it because the US claimed he was it's mastermind.

Osama bin-Laden was a joke, a fool, and not the mastermind of anything.

"Al-Qaeda" was a fiction created by the Justice Department so they could prosecute certain people related to the 1993 WTC bombing in a "continuing criminal enterprise," and wasn't the Osama bin-Laden camp he ran in Afghanistan. The single camp, not some network of anything.
I B Hankering's Avatar
Hankering and Munchmaster,

The fact that either of you would still believe that the US invasion of Afghanistan was to destroy "al-Qaeda" evidences how gullable and silly your notions are on these matters.

No one with any knowledge believes that "al-Qaeda" ever even existed in 2001 other than as a myth of the US, which subsequently became a rallying cry for the resistance.

Until 2001 Osama bin-Laden never heard of the term "al-Qaeda," and only adopted it because the US claimed he was it's mastermind.

Osama bin-Laden was a joke, a fool, and not the mastermind of anything.

"Al-Qaeda" was a fiction created by the Justice Department so they could prosecute certain people related to the 1993 WTC bombing in a "continuing criminal enterprise," and wasn't the Osama bin-Laden camp he ran in Afghanistan. The single camp, not some network of anything. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts
TAE, your sense of history is horribly distorted and diverges from reality and truth.
Bullshit, TAE! On August 15, 1945, Hirohito announced Japan's unconditional surrender to the Allies. That announcement was predicated on the destruction of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the Japanese armies in Manchuria. Stalin's August invasion of Manchuria, "August Storm", was predicated on the fact that the U.S. had atomic bombs which meant the U.S. might possibly conclude the Pacific War with no spoils going to the U.S.S.R. Originally Posted by I B Hankering
You are just dead wrong.

Hirohito announced the surrender but it was not unconditional. The US first told the Japanese that Hirohito would have to be toppled, and that's the only reason why the Japanese refused to surrender. Then after Okinawa the firebombing started and it was more lethal than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese didn't care that much about the 60,000 killed in each of those cities. They cared dearly about the 80,000 killed in Tokyo BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed. And after they were bombed the Japanese still didn't surrender. After the Nagasaki bomb was dropped and still nothing happened the US resumed firebombing because THERE WERE NO MORE ATOM BOMBS TO USE.

So after Nagasaki the US firebombed Tokyo one more time, and ......

DA DA DA DA......!!!

Now the US caved in and told the Japanese that THEY COULD KEEP THEIR EMPEROR.

AND THEN LIKE MAGIC THE JAPANESE SURRENDERED.

[but it wasn't an unconditional surrender because it was negotiated so that the Japanese Emperor could stay on his blood-soaked throne]

That's the real story, and not the bullshit you see on the television and read in public school textbooks.
TAE, your sense of history is horribly distorted and diverges from reality and truth. Originally Posted by I B Hankering
If you believe the Bush myths about al-Qaeda then you should go to Iraq and begin looking for those weapons of mass destruction because those two lies were equally created out of thin air.

Osama bin-Laden never called his one stupid camp in Afghanistan "al-Qaeda."

"al-Qaeda" was a fiction created by a government witness after the 1993 bombing so that Federal laws could be used to hold bin-Laden culpable for the 1998 African embassy bombings.

That witness made up the whole name and stupid story, and then other agencies started calling the bin-Laden organization "al-Qaeda" even though bin-Laden never heard of it until after 9-11. When he was accused of being the mastermind of the attack he first denied it, and then claimed responsibility and declared himself the leader of "al-Qaeda."

Then al-Qaedas starting springing up all over the damn place everytime some idiot with a gun wanted to make a name for himself.

The whole thing was every bit as manufactured and stupid as the weapons of mass destruction crap over Iraq.

It was all the same jumble of shit.

btw.....
The FBI never said bin-Laden was involved in 9-11, and he was never indicted for it. He was on the FBI list only because he was linked to the African embassy bombings.

Law Enforcement in the US never linked bin-Laden to 9-11.

Because HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Oh and one more thing....
The only American to see bin-Laden in his cave before 9-11 was journalist Jonathan Miller, who said he was totally out of touch with everything going on in the world and was directing nothing beyond the perimeter of his little training camp project thing.
Munchmasterman's Avatar
This really makes me laugh.

Everyone I meet with a father in the war says the same thing.

In reality there was no intention to invade the home islands. The notion that the bombs saved lives was invented well after they were dropped because doing so was a major war crime needing rationalization.

And for the last time....

The Japanese didn't surrender until the US resumed firebombing. It didn't happen right after the atom bombs were used like the ignorant American public sees on televsion.

Using the atom bomb IS NOT WHAT ENDED THE WAR.

The war was ended when the US agreed to NOT HAVE AN UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.

The war ended when the US agreed to keep the Emperor, a major war criminal, on the throne. That's what ended the war. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts
The emperor made a broadcast on Aug 15 directing his people to accept the terms of the Potsdam conference.
There was no bombing between the 9 and 15th.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/e...ansur/js-8.htm

Will you ever provide links that.......what am I saying?
Of course you won't provide links.

You can't.
I B Hankering's Avatar
You are just dead wrong.

Hirohito announced the surrender but it was not unconditional. The US first told the Japanese that Hirohito would have to be toppled, and that's the only reason why the Japanese refused to surrender. Then after Okinawa the firebombing started and it was more lethal than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese didn't care that much about the 60,000 killed in each of those cities. They cared dearly about the 80,000 killed in Tokyo BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed. And after they were bombed the Japanese still didn't surrender. After the Nagasaki bomb was dropped and still nothing happened the US resumed firebombing because THERE WERE NO MORE ATOM BOMBS TO USE.

So after Nagasaki the US firebombed Tokyo one more time, and ......

DA DA DA DA......!!!

Now the US caved in and told the Japanese that THEY COULD KEEP THEIR EMPEROR.

AND THEN LIKE MAGIC THE JAPANESE SURRENDERED.

[but it wasn't an unconditional surrender because it was negotiated so that the Japanese Emperor could stay on his blood-soaked throne]

That's the real story, and not the bullshit you see on the television and read in public school textbooks. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Here is Emperor Hirohito's August 15th recorded speech to the nation, where he reads the Imperial Rescript on the Termination of the War. It was broadcast at 12:00 noon, Japan standard time:

... Despite the best that has been done by everyone—the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people—the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We [Hirohito’s “royal we”] have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

And here is Hirohito's 2 September 1945 proclamation:



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PROCLAMATION
Accepting the terms set forth in the Declaration issued by the Heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China on July 26th, 1945 at Potsdam and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, We have commanded the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to sign on Our behalf the Instrument of Surrender presented by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers and to issue General Orders to the Military and Naval Forces in accordance with the direction of the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers.

We command all Our people forthwith to cease hostilities, to lay down their arms and faithfully to carry out all the provisions of Instrument of Surrender and the General Orders issued by the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters hereunder.
Article by article, here is what Japan agreed to do under the terms of the surrender:
  • First, adopt all provisions of the Potsdam Declaration.
  • Second, surrender unconditionally all armed forces. . .
http://www.taiwandocuments.org/receipt.htm


BTW, here is a good – a legitimate – bibliography for you to read and consider (notice, they are not TV or high school textbooks; rather they are the works of esteemed historians):

Allen, Thomas B. and Norman Polmar. Code Name Downfall: The Secret Plan to Invade Japan -- and Why Truman Dropped the Bomb
Frank, Richard B. Downfall: The End Of The Imperial Japanese Empire.
Glantz, David. The Soviet Strategic Offensive In Manchuria, 1945: ‘AugustStorm’.
Hasegawa, Tsuyoshi. Racing The Enemy: Stalin, Truman, And The Surrender Of Japan.
Rhodes, Richard. The Making Of The Atomic Bomb.
Spector, Ronald H. Eagle Against The Sun.
Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire,1936-1945

http://www.dannen.com/decision/index.html