too easy Originally Posted by LongermongerWhatever LM, we can agree to disagree, but there will be no ban on hi capacity magazine retroactive to those already owned so the argument is mute, I mean do you think the government is going to demand that you turn them in without compensating the owners, not going to happen, too much money 5 million or more units at $30.00 a pop. You also make it sound as if the use of hi capacity mags is some kind of out of control crime spree, You have multiple millions of hi capacity mags in homes across america and you have had 1 incident, kind of lopsided, but it makes you feel good right, I mean banning them would make you feel as if you solved the problem, its just another feel good response to a tragic situation. Ask yourself would you even care if this had been a tea party rally. By the way cars are durable too, and they have been used in mass murder, remember the guy that drove his car into the crowd but lets not quibble. I personally dont own any 33 round magazines, but too me banning them to make a group of people feel good about themselves because they are doing "something" is stupid.
- dirty dog
- 01-23-2011, 09:05 AM
- Bartman1963
- 01-23-2011, 10:23 AM
I think then that we should at this from the point of: Guns proliferate, the constitution allows it, some say even mandates it.
From that point, how have we attempted to solve problems related to an item proliferating when if misused can cause deadly harm? I can think of only two more or less similar examples. Prohibition, and we all know how that one worked out. And the "War on Drugs", which seems at worst to be a losing proposition and perhaps at best a noble effort doomed to fail.
So what's the answer? Stricter penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime? Has that worked anywhere? I don't know. Until someone comes up with a way to tell if you are insane at the point of sale this kind of horrific act may remain a fact of life. There are no cure all solutions for this issue. Not in a society with as much liberty as ours. (Lets not take away any more of that liberty).
From that point, how have we attempted to solve problems related to an item proliferating when if misused can cause deadly harm? I can think of only two more or less similar examples. Prohibition, and we all know how that one worked out. And the "War on Drugs", which seems at worst to be a losing proposition and perhaps at best a noble effort doomed to fail.
So what's the answer? Stricter penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime? Has that worked anywhere? I don't know. Until someone comes up with a way to tell if you are insane at the point of sale this kind of horrific act may remain a fact of life. There are no cure all solutions for this issue. Not in a society with as much liberty as ours. (Lets not take away any more of that liberty).
- Sens55
- 01-23-2011, 11:32 AM
I know I said I wouldn't respond. But your ignorance of firearms is only surpassed by your desire to take them away.
There are plenty of times when cars are used to attempt to murder. They just don't make headlines. Here's an article where it happened right here in KC. Bet you didn't even know. So, again, just because it doesn't make front-page news doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The point is EVERY time someone uses a gun, it's national, front-page news. But I'd be willing to bet just about every beat cop that's every pulled street duty has had someone try to run him at least once. Can't prove it. But I've known enough cops to know the ones I met have. http://www.pitch.com/2011-01-20/news/club-oasis-raid/. But how many have had legally-owned handguns pulled on them....a few for sure. But not as many as ILLEGALLY owned guns. So, again, let's enforce the laws we have before wee make more unenforceable laws.
And the law is "weak". Really? Do you know that it wasn't posted that carry wasn't allowed? Do you? No, you don't. Most CC laws are written in a way that gives latitude to premise owners to make their own decisions as to allow, or not allow, CC weapons. You can carry into most restaurants or grocery stores in town UNLESS they post a no carry sign....which most do! So in effect, there are far fewer places you can carry than what it says on paper. Believe or don't. I knew you wouldn't put any credence in any statistics from the NRA. You say "prove it" and then choose to disregard it or downplay it when it's not to your liking. Tough shit. I haven't seen you back up anything you say with anything at all. Your entire argument is unsubstantiated, but yet you demand others validate their position. Validate yours and we'll go from there. But you can't, can you?
And high-capacity clips, like DD said, will never go away. They'll be here, they'll get smuggled, they can alter existing ones (at times) to allow more. Clips are durable, but they don't last as long as the gun themselves usually, and they're much more fragile.
But here's the point, LM, since you can't seem to grasp it and seem to only understand numbers of rounds, not the damage each individual round can do. I said a well-trained individual, which this guy obviously was NOT. I can reload in well under a second (and btw, not all targets are of people. Many are circles. Most action shooting is at bowling pins. Again, your ignorance of the issue is massive). But there are scores of data that ANYONE can look up (I'm not your errand boy, do your own research), but here's a site that can help www.firearmstatistical.com
OK, genius, here's the break down. Most "high-capacity" mags in pistols are about 14 rounds and are almost always 9mm or below. 9mm is by far the most popular handgun caliber on the streets. Part of that is because the military switched to 9mm Beretta's in the 80's (and have since started to change back in many instances because it lacks stopping power!). 9mm is approximately .35". A .45 is, of course, .45". So the .45 is a larger, heavier round. But it's also more powerful. Most 9mm ammunition is between 115 grain, 124 grain or 147 grain. "Grain" is the weight of the powder behind the projectile, which is truly the bullet. Many of the 147 grain varieties are law-enforcement only. Each manufacturer constantly tests their rounds in various new handguns to measure performance. And the ranges can be substantial. But a ballpark performance expectation is that most 9mm rounds will leave the barrel moving at 1000 to 1200 fps and when fired into gelatin (sometimes clothed, sometimes not), it will penetrate 10-15" and will expand betwen .4 and .6 inches. Again, there are examples of some rounds doing more or less, but this is the average range.
A .45 on the other hand has grains between 185, 200 and 230. They will leave the muzzle slightly slower at 900-1100 fps, and will penetrate 12-20", expanding to .5-.7 inches. So you have a bigger, heavier round penetrating with more power, deeper into the tissue and expanding further. The round can do more internal damage, which in turn makes it more lethal. So the math isn't in how many people "get shot", it's how many people would be dead because of the shooting. Most .45's hold 8+1. A quick reload, which can be done in a fraction of a second, and you're looking at 17 rounds downrange in seconds. So, again, my point is, a high-capacity mag isn't going to make much difference. The difference is in the shooter. Thankfully this guy didn't know what he was doing or more could have gotten hurt.
Your argument that more would have been hurt if someone with a CC permit pulled their weapon is again, unsubstantiated and unvalidated. You just don't know that. BUT, even though you'd NEVER take the time to look, the NRA has a an entire section every month in their magazine that highlights people using CC weapons in doing things ranging from protecting their house, stopping an armed robbery or beating and many others. Many don't even involve them shooting, as many criminals when faced with someone armed for self-defense, will run. Again, you won't give it any credence, but it's there, and it is able to be verified, but you'll just blow it off because you don't want to believe it. Again, your lack of belief doesn't mean it's not true...you just won't accept the facts. And before you give me any crap about all the people "hurt" by guns, I'd ask you to stop. Because the issue is with legislation and it's again proven (but you don't want to hear it) that most crimes involving guns are not LEGALLY OWNED weapons. And I, and the NRA, firmly support taking guns out of the hands of criminals while keeping them in the hands of law-abiding citizens. So, if you can't validate it, don't bring it up.
As far as a "slippery slope" and me threatening you...you seem to pull out what you want and discard the rest (which is pretty much the basis for any of your arguments). I said you, as in any "you" have nothing to fear from me UNLESS you are harming my family. So, unless you had thoughts of doing anything to me or my family, then it doesn't pertain to you, does it? So don't tell me to stop it, take the time to read it for what was mean instead of just trying to find things to argue about, which really seems to be your only contribution here.
There are plenty of times when cars are used to attempt to murder. They just don't make headlines. Here's an article where it happened right here in KC. Bet you didn't even know. So, again, just because it doesn't make front-page news doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The point is EVERY time someone uses a gun, it's national, front-page news. But I'd be willing to bet just about every beat cop that's every pulled street duty has had someone try to run him at least once. Can't prove it. But I've known enough cops to know the ones I met have. http://www.pitch.com/2011-01-20/news/club-oasis-raid/. But how many have had legally-owned handguns pulled on them....a few for sure. But not as many as ILLEGALLY owned guns. So, again, let's enforce the laws we have before wee make more unenforceable laws.
And the law is "weak". Really? Do you know that it wasn't posted that carry wasn't allowed? Do you? No, you don't. Most CC laws are written in a way that gives latitude to premise owners to make their own decisions as to allow, or not allow, CC weapons. You can carry into most restaurants or grocery stores in town UNLESS they post a no carry sign....which most do! So in effect, there are far fewer places you can carry than what it says on paper. Believe or don't. I knew you wouldn't put any credence in any statistics from the NRA. You say "prove it" and then choose to disregard it or downplay it when it's not to your liking. Tough shit. I haven't seen you back up anything you say with anything at all. Your entire argument is unsubstantiated, but yet you demand others validate their position. Validate yours and we'll go from there. But you can't, can you?
And high-capacity clips, like DD said, will never go away. They'll be here, they'll get smuggled, they can alter existing ones (at times) to allow more. Clips are durable, but they don't last as long as the gun themselves usually, and they're much more fragile.
But here's the point, LM, since you can't seem to grasp it and seem to only understand numbers of rounds, not the damage each individual round can do. I said a well-trained individual, which this guy obviously was NOT. I can reload in well under a second (and btw, not all targets are of people. Many are circles. Most action shooting is at bowling pins. Again, your ignorance of the issue is massive). But there are scores of data that ANYONE can look up (I'm not your errand boy, do your own research), but here's a site that can help www.firearmstatistical.com
OK, genius, here's the break down. Most "high-capacity" mags in pistols are about 14 rounds and are almost always 9mm or below. 9mm is by far the most popular handgun caliber on the streets. Part of that is because the military switched to 9mm Beretta's in the 80's (and have since started to change back in many instances because it lacks stopping power!). 9mm is approximately .35". A .45 is, of course, .45". So the .45 is a larger, heavier round. But it's also more powerful. Most 9mm ammunition is between 115 grain, 124 grain or 147 grain. "Grain" is the weight of the powder behind the projectile, which is truly the bullet. Many of the 147 grain varieties are law-enforcement only. Each manufacturer constantly tests their rounds in various new handguns to measure performance. And the ranges can be substantial. But a ballpark performance expectation is that most 9mm rounds will leave the barrel moving at 1000 to 1200 fps and when fired into gelatin (sometimes clothed, sometimes not), it will penetrate 10-15" and will expand betwen .4 and .6 inches. Again, there are examples of some rounds doing more or less, but this is the average range.
A .45 on the other hand has grains between 185, 200 and 230. They will leave the muzzle slightly slower at 900-1100 fps, and will penetrate 12-20", expanding to .5-.7 inches. So you have a bigger, heavier round penetrating with more power, deeper into the tissue and expanding further. The round can do more internal damage, which in turn makes it more lethal. So the math isn't in how many people "get shot", it's how many people would be dead because of the shooting. Most .45's hold 8+1. A quick reload, which can be done in a fraction of a second, and you're looking at 17 rounds downrange in seconds. So, again, my point is, a high-capacity mag isn't going to make much difference. The difference is in the shooter. Thankfully this guy didn't know what he was doing or more could have gotten hurt.
Your argument that more would have been hurt if someone with a CC permit pulled their weapon is again, unsubstantiated and unvalidated. You just don't know that. BUT, even though you'd NEVER take the time to look, the NRA has a an entire section every month in their magazine that highlights people using CC weapons in doing things ranging from protecting their house, stopping an armed robbery or beating and many others. Many don't even involve them shooting, as many criminals when faced with someone armed for self-defense, will run. Again, you won't give it any credence, but it's there, and it is able to be verified, but you'll just blow it off because you don't want to believe it. Again, your lack of belief doesn't mean it's not true...you just won't accept the facts. And before you give me any crap about all the people "hurt" by guns, I'd ask you to stop. Because the issue is with legislation and it's again proven (but you don't want to hear it) that most crimes involving guns are not LEGALLY OWNED weapons. And I, and the NRA, firmly support taking guns out of the hands of criminals while keeping them in the hands of law-abiding citizens. So, if you can't validate it, don't bring it up.
As far as a "slippery slope" and me threatening you...you seem to pull out what you want and discard the rest (which is pretty much the basis for any of your arguments). I said you, as in any "you" have nothing to fear from me UNLESS you are harming my family. So, unless you had thoughts of doing anything to me or my family, then it doesn't pertain to you, does it? So don't tell me to stop it, take the time to read it for what was mean instead of just trying to find things to argue about, which really seems to be your only contribution here.
- JS42
- 01-23-2011, 12:20 PM
"You say "prove it" and then choose to disregard it or downplay it when it's not to your liking. Tough shit. I haven't seen you back up anything you say with anything at all. Your entire argument is unsubstantiated, but yet you demand others validate their position. Validate yours and we'll go from there. But you can't, can you?"
Sens, that part was well worth your response back to him, even though you didn't want to. LM is definitely a different breed. I learned a long time ago to just ignore him as much as possible. There is no reasoning with him, as he is always right, and enjoys being smug and arrogant about it. Thanks for providing me a great laugh for the day though. I definitely enjoyed it..lol
Sens, that part was well worth your response back to him, even though you didn't want to. LM is definitely a different breed. I learned a long time ago to just ignore him as much as possible. There is no reasoning with him, as he is always right, and enjoys being smug and arrogant about it. Thanks for providing me a great laugh for the day though. I definitely enjoyed it..lol
- Sens55
- 01-23-2011, 06:09 PM
Glad you got a good laugh. He reminds me of my older brother. He won't listen to your argument at all and will dismiss anything you bring to support your position then will pull some obscure, unverifiable statistic and proclaim it as the end-all be-all truth.
Went so far as one time we were debating when a particular unit was deployed to Vietnam. He supposedly had a 1st Sergeant that served with the unit. He was tellling me that they 1st deployed years after they had already been in country. So I pulled out a book I owned which was the official history of the unit written by the unit historian. I showed him the dates. He then waved his hand and said "you can put whatever you want in a book but that doesn't make it true". I'm like WTF?!?
That's what this feels like to me. No matter how accurate or verifiable something is it'll be dismissed.
Went so far as one time we were debating when a particular unit was deployed to Vietnam. He supposedly had a 1st Sergeant that served with the unit. He was tellling me that they 1st deployed years after they had already been in country. So I pulled out a book I owned which was the official history of the unit written by the unit historian. I showed him the dates. He then waved his hand and said "you can put whatever you want in a book but that doesn't make it true". I'm like WTF?!?
That's what this feels like to me. No matter how accurate or verifiable something is it'll be dismissed.
- Cheaper2buyit
- 01-24-2011, 08:00 PM
even tho I am younger than some I don't need a fancy clip thats what ducktape is for you tape two together & flip plus I was always told if 5 shots don't get it duck bitch duck
- thighhighfreek
- 01-24-2011, 08:05 PM
As long as we contact and call our Legislators theyll fear passing new gun control schemes. Call your Congressman? Senator today! 202 225 3121 Capitol Switch Board and... Join the NRA!
- chriscraft
- 01-25-2011, 04:35 PM
Gotta love it when some dildo tells you owning guns is unnecessary because that's what cops are for. Well...
"When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."
So, there.
"When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."
So, there.
- CuteOldGuy
- 01-25-2011, 07:46 PM
You guys need to quit taking Longer seriously. In a battle of wits, Longer is unarmed.
- Sarge
- 01-25-2011, 08:09 PM
Sens,
Good post except for one error. Bullet grain rating is the weight of the bullet, not the propellant powering it.
Also, as for the military going away from the 9mm, maybe in some of the elite units they're allowed to use non-standard weapons but the 9mm Beretta 92s is still (for the forseeable future) the duty handgun of the military. There was a movement a few years ago to go to something heavier (.40 S&W or even back to the .45) because the FMJ ammunition the military has to use (115gr) was not proving to be effective (would just punch through and leave a little hole behind, not a dead badguy) and a number of companies started developing weapons for military use (Smith & Wesson M&P, Springfield XDM, and a few other manufacturers) but it was shelved.
Good post except for one error. Bullet grain rating is the weight of the bullet, not the propellant powering it.
Also, as for the military going away from the 9mm, maybe in some of the elite units they're allowed to use non-standard weapons but the 9mm Beretta 92s is still (for the forseeable future) the duty handgun of the military. There was a movement a few years ago to go to something heavier (.40 S&W or even back to the .45) because the FMJ ammunition the military has to use (115gr) was not proving to be effective (would just punch through and leave a little hole behind, not a dead badguy) and a number of companies started developing weapons for military use (Smith & Wesson M&P, Springfield XDM, and a few other manufacturers) but it was shelved.
- Sens55
- 01-26-2011, 04:59 PM
Sarge
The unit I served in went to the HK USP 40 and is now using .45's. Custom. I wasn't going to spend the time going into the NATO movement to standard cache of ammunition among allies. But very few GI's ever really use a pistol. And those that do are using a .45...because of the stopping power.
The unit I served in went to the HK USP 40 and is now using .45's. Custom. I wasn't going to spend the time going into the NATO movement to standard cache of ammunition among allies. But very few GI's ever really use a pistol. And those that do are using a .45...because of the stopping power.
- Sens55
- 01-26-2011, 05:01 PM
Btw. I love the Beretta! Just wouldn't want to depend on it to stop an intruder.
- Cheaper2buyit
- 01-26-2011, 05:57 PM
Had a friend go to jail for using bleach in a water gun so i guess bullets don't matter if you aim right yes I know I don't have all the high end knowledge you guys are using in this debate but the truth is people will always be killed even if with a bat or wars will be fought even with swords.
Can someone tell me how many legal guns were bought & or used in the 4 people a day ave that the news says get shot in Kc. No I don't have a link this info was on Tv.
Can someone tell me how many legal guns were bought & or used in the 4 people a day ave that the news says get shot in Kc. No I don't have a link this info was on Tv.
- dirty dog
- 01-26-2011, 06:35 PM
Had a friend go to jail for using bleach in a water gun so i guess bullets don't matter if you aim right yes I know I don't have all the high end knowledge you guys are using in this debate but the truth is people will always be killed even if with a bat or wars will be fought even with swords.I am not sure where those numbers are coming from. There were 106 homicides in kansas city missouri in 2010, even if you say every one of the deaths were the result of firearms that equates to about .29 people a day.
Can someone tell me how many legal guns were bought & or used in the 4 people a day ave that the news says get shot in Kc. No I don't have a link this info was on Tv. Originally Posted by Cheaper2buyit
- catnipdipper
- 01-27-2011, 07:30 AM
DD I think the cheepster meant wounded along with the dead?