Our race to the bottom continues...

Let's get something straight right now. I didn't try and convince anybody of anything. The studies I posted clearly state this information and anyone's welcome to challenge that data. I happen to consider the Comptrollers Office of Texas a far more reliable and believeable source than let's say, a right-wing blog, but you're welcome to believe what you want.



Fail.
http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/mexico Originally Posted by F-Sharp

I read your link twice and saw NOTHING about Remittances. Given it's the website of the U.S. Trade Representative and only deals in "official" trade between the two countries it's not surprising that the topic of remittances is left out. I also didn't see what the drug trade brings into the Mexican economy annually. So what are you disputing? That it's not the third largest source of income for the Mexican economy? Ok, is it the 4th, 5th? Does it matter? Are you disputing the 8 Billion dollars that's going back to Mexico annually and is not being spent here in the USA?

I read your link twice and saw NOTHING about Remittances. Given it's the website of the U.S. Trade Representative and only deals in "official" trade between the two countries it's not surprising that the topic of remittances is left out. I also didn't see what the drug trade brings into the Mexican economy annually. So what are you disputing? That it's not the third largest source of income for the Mexican economy? Ok, is it the 4th, 5th? Does it matter? Are you disputing the 8 Billion dollars that's going back to Mexico annually and is not being spent here in the USA? Originally Posted by DTorrchia

No genius. What the link is saying is that the measley $8 billion you're complaining about is getting pumped right back in to our economy in the form of $151 billion in traded goods and sevices every year.

I know it's difficult for you, but try and follow along....

Pedro works in a lettuce field in California and sends half if his pay home to his family in Mexico. His family then spends that money on goods and services in Mexico, some of which we might have even sold Mexico to begin with. Mexico then takes that money and sends it right back to us to pay for more goods and services to sell to Pedro's family.

It's rather brilliant, no?

Sounds Like a form of human trafficing

Sounds Like a form of human trafficing Originally Posted by mgohara

So does sending all of our manufacturing jobs abroad so the corporate tax-dodgers can continue making money and making Americans poor.

So does sending all of our manufacturing jobs abroad so the corporate tax-dodgers can continue making money and making Americans poor. Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

That sounds like cutting expenses. When the cost of wages to make something outstrips people's ability to afford to pay for it then business must find a cheaper labor. When Beoing was trying to go to South Carolina it was because of labor costs.

Don't get me wrong unions have there place but when they can hold businesses hostage or make things to expensive by out pacing the workers wages so that a company must look for cheaper labor it becomes one of economic survival.

In Ohio, where I am from, if it is a union shop you don't have to join the union but you still have to pay union dues. Now does that make sense?

No genius. What the link is saying is that the measley $8 billion you're complaining about is getting pumped right back in to our economy in the form of $151 billion in traded goods and sevices every year.

I know it's difficult for you, but try and follow along....

Pedro works in a lettuce field in California and sends half if his pay home to his family in Mexico. His family then spends that money on goods and services in Mexico, some of which we might have even sold Mexico to begin with. Mexico then takes that money and sends it right back to us to pay for more goods and services to sell to Pedro's family.

It's rather brilliant, no? Originally Posted by F-Sharp

You ARE brilliant! How did I miss that before? So you're perfectly o.k. with Illegal Aliens' untaxed money being sent back to Mexico because their families may buy American made goods with it?
You object however to American Corporations not paying higher taxes on the profits that they make off of goods they manufacture and send to Mexico? Yes, brilliant you are!!! You simply never see the hypocrisy in your arguments. But the really brilliant ones never usually do.

You ARE brilliant! How did I miss that before? So you're perfectly o.k. with Illegal Aliens' untaxed money being sent back to Mexico because their families may buy American made goods with it?
You object however to American Corporations not paying higher taxes on the profits that they make off of goods they manufacture and send to Mexico? Yes, brilliant you are!!! You simply never see the hypocrisy in your arguments. But the really brilliant ones never usually do. Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Who says it's untaxed Mr. Conjecture? You think the illegals working for the UFW or others are not paying taxes? Sorry, but most of those jobs are Union jobs pal. You just keep running your mouth about things you don't bother to even consider. Still waiting for you to "debunk" my other studies and here's some more things you can add this to list of things you have yet to "debunk".

"Undocumented Taxpayers
Most arguments against illegal immigration begin with the premise that the undocumented don't pay income taxes, and that they therefore take more in services than they contribute. However, IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[12] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.[12] Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[13]

The Internal Revenue Service issues an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have Federal tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code. Federal tax law prohibits the IRS from sharing data with other government agencies including the INS. In 2006 1.4 million people used ITIN when filing taxes, of which more than half were illegal immigrants.[14]

Undocumented Workers Subsidize Social Security
Illegal immigrants pay social security payroll taxes but are not eligible for benefits. During 2006, Standard & Poor's analysts wrote: "Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits."

The Social Security Administration has stated that it believes unauthorized work by non-citizens is a major cause of wage items being posted as erroneous wage reports instead of on an individual's earnings record.[15] When Social Security numbers are already in use; names do not match the numbers or the numbers are fake, or the person of record is too old, young, dead etc., the earnings reported to the Social Security Agency are put in an Earnings Suspense file [ESF]. The Social Security spends about $100 million a year and corrects all but about 2% of these. From Tax Years (TY) 1937 through 2003 the ESF had accumulated about 255 million mismatched wage reports, representing $520 billion in wages and about $75 billion in employment taxes paid into the over $1.5 trillion in the Social Security Trust funds. As of October 2005, approximately 8.8 million wage reports, representing $57.8 billion in wages remained unresolved in the suspense file for TY 2003."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...nted_Taxpayers

Who says it's untaxed Mr. Conjecture? You think the illegals working for the UFW or others are not paying taxes? Sorry, but most of those jobs are Union jobs pal. You just keep running your mouth about things you don't bother to even consider. Still waiting for you to "debunk" my other studies and here's some more things you can add this to list of things you have yet to "debunk".
I had read the above before I even replied to you. You can fantasize that I sit around and simply watch news for my "conjecture" but I actually read a lot.
Now let's address this tax issue. I'm sorry I can't provide you with a link, but if you'll research some of my posts, you'll see where I spoke of my SO being a CPA who volunteers to prepare income tax returns for low income families for free.
According to the tax returns she's personally prepared for many of the Illegals using ITIN's, many get back MORE on their return than what they paid in. That's right "pal", I said they get back MORE than what they paid in. She's not from America, she's only lived here less than 3 years so she certainly doesn't have a dog in this fight, so to speak. She has no reason to lie or make up what she's told me. She has simply seen it first hand for the last two tax seasons where she's personally prepared their returns.

Therefor my genius friend, it's "untaxed" money so to speak that's going back to Mexico. Or, if you don't like the term "untaxed" it's money that's not staying in our Treasury, that's for sure.
So again, looking up a link on Wiki is nice, and you may think you're proving your point, but given the choice between a Wiki link and the first hand knowledge of a CPA who actually prepares the tax returns of Illegals, I'll take the latter as more reliable proof.
You also conveniently ignore the other 6 MILLION that are NOT listed in your link. Most everyone agrees there's approximately 12 million Illegal Aliens in the USA.
So according to your own link, "However, IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year". That's half PAL! Now, add into that the number that get back more than what they paid in, that under report their income due to cash under the table etc....and you'll soon figure out what's really going on.


"Uncompensated care generates a cost on hospital emergency departments and cost-shifting to insured and paying patients.[24] Because of the U.S. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 (42 U.S.C. § 1395dd), most hospitals may not refuse anyone treatment for an emergency medical condition because of citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay.
An example of the cost conflict between federal government, state and local government, and private institutions, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) brings injured and ill undocumented immigrants to hospital emergency rooms but does not pay for their medical care.[25] Almost $190 million, or about 25 percent, of the uncompensated costs Southwest border county hospitals incurred resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to undocumented immigrants.[25]"


The above numbers only begin to touch on the problem. I noticed you never answered my question as to how many Hospitals in California were forced to shut down because of non-reimbursed treatment expenses?

"Undocumented Taxpayers
Most arguments against illegal immigration begin with the premise that the undocumented don't pay income taxes, and that they therefore take more in services than they contribute. However, IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[12] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.[12] Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[13]

The Internal Revenue Service issues an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have Federal tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code. Federal tax law prohibits the IRS from sharing data with other government agencies including the INS. In 2006 1.4 million people used ITIN when filing taxes, of which more than half were illegal immigrants.[14]

Undocumented Workers Subsidize Social Security
Illegal immigrants pay social security payroll taxes but are not eligible for benefits. During 2006, Standard & Poor's analysts wrote: "Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits."

The Social Security Administration has stated that it believes unauthorized work by non-citizens is a major cause of wage items being posted as erroneous wage reports instead of on an individual's earnings record.[15] When Social Security numbers are already in use; names do not match the numbers or the numbers are fake, or the person of record is too old, young, dead etc., the earnings reported to the Social Security Agency are put in an Earnings Suspense file [ESF]. The Social Security spends about $100 million a year and corrects all but about 2% of these. From Tax Years (TY) 1937 through 2003 the ESF had accumulated about 255 million mismatched wage reports, representing $520 billion in wages and about $75 billion in employment taxes paid into the over $1.5 trillion in the Social Security Trust funds. As of October 2005, approximately 8.8 million wage reports, representing $57.8 billion in wages remained unresolved in the suspense file for TY 2003."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...nted_Taxpayers Originally Posted by F-Sharp

So my point stands. At best, HALF are paying taxes and out of the percentage you have to take out the ones who are getting back more or equal to what they paid in. So unless YOU are a CPA that's actually sat in a tax center where Illegals come to file and can provide some first hand facts that dispute what I wrote above, then I think you're coming out on the loosing side of this one PAL.

So my point stands. At best, HALF are paying taxes and out of the percentage you have to take out the ones who are getting back more or equal to what they paid in. So unless YOU are a CPA that's actually sat in a tax center where Illegals come to file and can provide some first hand facts that dispute what I wrote above, then I think you're coming out on the loosing side of this one PAL. Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Did you even think about this statement before you posted it? Do yourself a favor and research how many Americans are employed and paying taxes. I'll give you a hint, it's about HALF! Thats right D, that 12 million folks includes children and the elderly who are not part of our labor force. You also need to consider that just because they're not filing doesn't mean payroll taxes are not being collected through their salary. Finally, here's another thing you overlooked; taxes are not just collected through payroll. Sales tax, property tax, registration, taxes on gasoline, utilities...the list goes on and on.

Your point has no merit, and unless your CPA SO is handling every tax return filed by immigrants in the entire U.S., I am not sure how anything she says is relevant. It might as well be your APD Detective friend feeding you this information.

I noticed you never answered my question as to how many Hospitals in California were forced to shut down because of non-reimbursed treatment expenses? Originally Posted by DTorrchia

It appears that the number you are looking for is 86 according to my 2 minutes of inquiry. If it is in fact related to non-reimbursed treatment expenses, then you start to see reasons why the healthcare mandate is a necessity. This is happening all over the country, not just in California. Given that fact that we have 50 million American's running around uninsured in this country at the moment, I would bet has more to do with rising healthcare costs then illegals who are greatly outnumbered in this case.

I'd love for you to give us some numbers nationwide to talk about.

Did you even think about this statement before you posted it? Do yourself a favor and research how many Americans are employed and paying taxes. I'll give you a hint, it's about HALF! Thats right D, that 12 million folks includes children and the elderly who are not part of our labor force. You also need to consider that just because they're not filing doesn't mean payroll taxes are not being collected through their salary. Finally, here's another thing you overlooked; taxes are not just collected through payroll. Sales tax, property tax, registration, taxes on gasoline, utilities...the list goes on and on.

We were talking about federal income tax. You know it and I know it so you're simply playing games with this one. How many illegals are part of "unions" here in Texas? Come on, you've got to do better than this.

Your point has no merit, and unless your CPA SO is handling every tax return filed by immigrants in the entire U.S.,

The same could be said in reverse. I've provided you with facts provided to me directly by someone that actually completes the tax returns of many illegals living here in Austin. So now YOU provide me with some credible facts and figures of how much money Illegal Aliens pay per year in Income tax. Until you do so, YOU are the one spouting conjecture because you have no hard facts to back up your assertions with. Simply pulling a number from Wiki that says....50 or 60% FILE income tax returns means NOTHING unless you can show how much of that is actually paid in and not reimbursed back to them. I have someone that's seen it first hand, if you want to attack her credibility or first hand experience then provide some numbers that dispute what she said. Otherwise I'll take her word for it.


I am not sure how anything she says is relevant. It might as well be your APD Detective friend feeding you this information.

Yep, and you have not provided any proof that my numbers where wrong when I asserted that in some parts of Austin over half the Property related crimes such as burglary of vehicles are committed by illegal aliens.

[color=#0000ff]

It appears that the number you are looking for is 86 according to my 2 minutes of inquiry. If it is in fact related to non-reimbursed treatment expenses, then you start to see reasons why the healthcare mandate is a necessity. This is happening all over the country, not just in California. Given that fact that we have 50 million American's running around uninsured in this country at the moment, I would bet has more to do with rising healthcare costs then illegals who are greatly outnumbered in this case.

I'd love for you to give us some numbers nationwide to talk about.

Ahhh, here goes the "nationwide" argument again.
You quote "Wiki" but then when I provide you numbers like this:
Almost $190 million, or about 25 percent, of the uncompensated costs Southwest border county hospitals incurred resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to undocumented immigrants.[25]"
you suddenly don't like those Wiki facts because they only deal with the "Southwest" part of the country? As I've pointed out to you before, I live in a "border State"! Therefor, the numbers that are most applicable and impact me the most are the numbers that occur in this state or other border states that tend to indicate a trend.
I've already proven to you and linked the study that showed that Illegal Aliens ARE incarcerated here in Texas at a higher percentage than their general population. I'm not gonna re-hash this again. So you chose to ignore the study by saying..."well of course the numbers will be higher in a border state" then continue to attack information provided by an APD Detective that simply corroborates what the study already found!
Whatever helps you sleep at night F-Sharp!

Now if we're talking federal income tax, that's a national issue, so again, prove how much they're actually paying into the system and we can talk. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air.
Originally Posted by F-Sharp

.

Ahhh, here goes the "nationwide" argument again.
Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Again? It was the only debate we were having and fuck me, you did it again. You managed to turn a debate you lost over taxes paid nationally by illegal aliens in to a debate about hospitals in California and a single tax office in Austin. You really have the whole straw man thing down to a science D, but it's seriously getting old.

All the information is in the links I provided, and the wiki link posted already contains source citations. Read them or not, I don't care. I'm not even going to continue this discussion with you. Next thing you know we'll be talking about a neighborhood in Chula Vista somewhere.

This thread just boggles my mind with what is being stated. The job of a corporate manager is to grow the corporation and maximize profits. That is not evil it is capitalism.

If you do not like corporations shipping jobs overseas then analyze why it is more profitable for them to do so. If you change some of those things maybe those jobs would stay here.

Anyone that thinks corporations do not include taxes as an expense when determining what they charge for a product is nuts.

Corporate profits go to far more than a handful of people. How many are invested in mutual funds, pension plans, 401k, IRA, etc.

If anyone thinks that raising corporate taxes will actually raise revenue to the government they are nuts. Corporations have massive amounts of profits earned overseas that are being kept overseas because of the taxes they would have to pay if they brought the profits back to the US. If you think that is evil remember that a corporations objective is to make a profit not support a bloated government. Also remember that capitalism is what made this a great nation. Have you ever considered how beneficial to the economy it would be to allow those profits to be brought back to the US at a low or no tax rate and then be invested here.

If you do not like corporations shipping jobs overseas then analyze why it is more profitable for them to do so. If you change some of those things maybe those jobs would stay here. Originally Posted by Laz

There's three main reasons those jobs have been sent overseas: little or no regulation (including labor laws), cheap property and cheap labor. Are you proposing we allow this to happen here in the good ole' U.S. of A? What ever happened to taking to a little pride in your country and giving up a little of those insane amount of profits for the good of your people and your country? It's us that made them profitable.

Anyone that thinks corporations do not include taxes as an expense when determining what they charge for a product is nuts. Originally Posted by Laz

True to some degree, but when your making $14 billion in profits and paying absolutely nothing in taxes on that profit, you can afford to give up some of that profit without it affecting your bottom line. Again, we're talking profit, not expense. You'd have to be less than breaking even before it starts affecting what you need to charge for whatever goods or services you're providing. The only thing truly affected before that happens is the gains made by the companies shareholders.

Corporate profits go to far more than a handful of people. How many are invested in mutual funds, pension plans, 401k, IRA, etc. Originally Posted by Laz

And here's the crux of the problem. "Far more than a handful" is still far less than it could or should be. Better than half this country is buying groceries on credit cards at the moment and can't afford such luxuries as stocks, much less have the ability to put money away for retirement.

In regard to pensions:

• A survey by the global consulting firm Towers Watson found that 17 percent of Fortune 100 companies still offer such plans, down from 67 percent in 1998.
• Those that offer direct-contribution plans — i.e., the miserable 401k – total 58 percent, up from 10 percent.

http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/201...n-plans/57989/

If anyone thinks that raising corporate taxes will actually raise revenue to the government they are nuts. Originally Posted by Laz

It's worked in every case it's happened in the last 50 years. Doesn't seem so nuts to me.

Corporations have massive amounts of profits earned overseas that are being kept overseas because of the taxes they would have to pay if they brought the profits back to the US. Originally Posted by Laz

See my statement above about taking a little pride in your country and your people.

If you think that is evil remember that a corporations objective is to make a profit not support a bloated government. Also remember that capitalism is what made this a great nation. Originally Posted by Laz

If corporations expect to be treated uniquely with their own privileges and liabilities, then it should pay it's fair share of the tax burden for those priviledges just as you and I do. It *was* capitalism that made this country great. Was, past-tense. Those days are gone for good I'm afraid. We are now in a race to the bottom with China and India and that's not going to change any time soon.

Have you ever considered how beneficial to the economy it would be to allow those profits to be brought back to the US at a low or no tax rate and then be invested here. Originally Posted by Laz

Beneficial to *whom* and invested in what exactly? We don't make anything anymore since they've moved all their manufacturing overseas. If that money was brought back today, it would go straight to Wall Street and end right back in the hands of the top 1% in this country and do little to nothing for the rest of us.

In fact, that brings up some good questions....

Anyone here honestly think that if those profits were brought back today, a large portion of us would benefit?

Would our income increase to the point where only one family member needed to work to support his family, as was in the 1950's?

Would our employers suddenly decide to bring back pension plans?

Would are employers do away with "at will" employment and bring back long term employment contracts?

Would our employers start providing better benefits packages?

Does anyone even think for one second that they would do the least bit of good with that money and invest it in solving this country's problems such as healthcare, education, energy, pollution or infrastructure?

Fat chance, and in fact the last question can only be answered by government in the form of taxation.

I welcome your responses, this outta be good :P

There's three main reasons those jobs have been sent overseas: little or no regulation (including labor laws), cheap property and cheap labor. Are you proposing we allow this to happen here in the good ole' U.S. of A? What ever happened to taking to a little pride in your country and giving up a little of those insane amount of profits for the good of your people and your country? It's us that made them profitable.

On regulation reductions - Yes. That can be done without harming society. Remember it is not in the corporations best interest to have a bad reputation and for the few irresponsible corporations there can be ways to deal with them. One way would be to hold the executives personally responsible along with the corporation to reduce their incentive to behave badly.

Cheap property is not an issue since there are many low cost locations in the US.

Cheap labor also comes with the disadvantage of distance. Unions driving up the cost of operations here is aqn issue but there are plenty of right to work states.


True to some degree, but when your making $14 billion in profits and paying absolutely nothing in taxes on that profit, you can afford to give up some of that profit without it affecting your bottom line. Again, we're talking profit, not expense. You'd have to be less than breaking even before it starts affecting what you need to charge for whatever goods or services you're providing. The only thing truly affected before that happens is the gains made by the companies shareholders.

When did you get the right to tell someone what they have to do with their money. Any money they give up belongs to the stockholders not you. Companies have a profit objective that they target and breakeven is a bad year. They will raise prices or lower costs to meet that profit objective. Lowering costs usually means getting rid of employees or relocating to lower cost locations which also gets rid of employees. That really helps all of those people you care so much about.

The owners of the busines AKA shareholders deserve to make a profit on their investment. They are taking the risk and they also deserve the rewards.


And here's the crux of the problem. "Far more than a handful" is still far less than it could or should be. Better than half this country is buying groceries on credit cards at the moment and can't afford such luxuries as stocks, much less have the ability to put money away for retirement.


In regard to pensions:

• A survey by the global consulting firm Towers Watson found that 17 percent of Fortune 100 companies still offer such plans, down from 67 percent in 1998.
• Those that offer direct-contribution plans — i.e., the miserable 401k – total 58 percent, up from 10 percent.

http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/201...n-plans/57989/

17% pensions, 58% 401ks - More than a handful. You put down 401k plans but they are a terrific retirement vehicle for millions of people. You left out IRAs, mutual funds, teacher retirement plans, and probably thousands of other things that I have not run across.

It's worked in every case it's happened in the last 50 years. Doesn't seem so nuts to me.

I have not researched the stats on this so I won't argue it at this time.

See my statement above about taking a little pride in your country and your people.

There are lots of people that have pride in their country that are also business owners or executives. They have a duty to make a profit. Without that the business will fail. Their decisions must be based on that first. If the nation or a state makes rules that force them to move operations to a lower cost location it is the governments resposibility not theirs.

If corporations expect to be treated uniquely with their own privileges and liabilities, then it should pay it's fair share of the tax burden for those priviledges just as you and I do. It *was* capitalism that made this country great. Was, past-tense. Those days are gone for good I'm afraid. We are now in a race to the bottom with China and India and that's not going to change any time soon.

If you think of capitalism as something that is outdated there is nothing I can ever say that will change your mind. However I do not think corporations should get special treatment. I hate corporate welfare and government bailouts. I simply believe that corporations provide a valuable service to our society and should not be penalized for it.


Beneficial to *whom* and invested in what exactly? We don't make anything anymore since they've moved all their manufacturing overseas. If that money was brought back today, it would go straight to Wall Street and end right back in the hands of the top 1% in this country and do little to nothing for the rest of us.

Beneficial to the shareholders which includes far more than 1% of the people. The people that would get jobs from investments made in the US. Instead of giving up on manufacturing jobs in the US, how about finding ways to bring those jobs back to the US.

In fact, that brings up some good questions....

Anyone here honestly think that if those profits were brought back today, a large portion of us would benefit?

Yes

Would our income increase to the point where only one family member needed to work to support his family, as was in the 1950's?

Probably not but our society has changed to the point where the desires of the people now are not the same as they were in the 50's.

Would our employers suddenly decide to bring back pension plans?

Defined benefit plans probably not. But that is not necessarily a bad thing considering how mobile our society has become and that there are good alternatives available.

Would are employers do away with "at will" employment and bring back long term employment contracts?

No. I would argue that long term contracts are not always a good thing and when they are they will exist.

Would our employers start providing better benefits packages?

Depends on the business. Sometimes yes sometimes no.

Does anyone even think for one second that they would do the least bit of good with that money and invest it in solving this country's problems such as healthcare, education, energy, pollution or infrastructure?

One of the problems with healthcare is that it is tied to the employer and not to the employee. If it was tied to the employee it would be portable so job changes would not hurt a person. Employers spend a lot of money training people. It is not their job to educate society in general. However, they pay a lot of local taxes which are used to fund an incompatant public education system. Who do you think provides our energy now? Corporations should clean up after themselves. That is all they are resposible for. Coprporations create a lot of tax revenue that is used by the local communities to fund infrastructure. Why else do you think communities work so hard to get them to locate in their community?

Fat chance, and in fact the last question can only be answered by government in the form of taxation.

Your economic solutions have been tried in socialist countries and failed. All they do is insure that everyone but the elite are equally miserable.

I welcome your responses, this outta be good :P Originally Posted by F-Sharp

That is my response. It is the only one I will make since it is clear that arguing with you is futile. You will not consider anyone elses opinion and I hate typing this much.

Again? It was the only debate we were having and fuck me, you did it again. You managed to turn a debate you lost over taxes paid nationally by illegal aliens in to a debate about hospitals in California and a single tax office in Austin. You really have the whole straw man thing down to a science D, but it's seriously getting old.

All the information is in the links I provided, and the wiki link posted already contains source citations. Read them or not, I don't care. I'm not even going to continue this discussion with you. Next thing you know we'll be talking about a neighborhood in Chula Vista somewhere. Originally Posted by F-Sharp

LOL, Nice deflection! Like I said, when you're backed into a corner and the fallacy of your argument is pointed out, you simply move on to the next subject. Just as well. You were running out of logical points to make on this one. Last I checked asking you to provide proof on how much the illegals are actually paying in taxes has nothing to do with "a neighborhood in Chula Vista somewhere". You tried to ridicule (as usual) someone that actually has hands on experience in the taxation process but can't provide the numbers to back it up. There's a difference between "filing" taxes and what one actually winds up "paying".
Like you said though, best to let this one lay.