feel free to flame

Let's look at the risk factor from the Hobbyist's point of view: "You expect me to risk decades of personal and professional achievement by providing personal information for a POA?" Not a chance. Originally Posted by awl4knot

No, I expect no such thing. I simply offer the option. You don't have to take it.

I see your point, though I disagree. As long as a lady IS willing to take care of herself and her business, she can absolutely screen strictly and still get plenty of clientele. I appreciate all the compliments, but I don't think you're giving other ladies enough credit. Sure, if she doesn't take care of herself or run her business well, she's going to have trouble pulling it off. But what if I told you I know quite a few ladies who screen as stringently as I do, and look nothing like me? These ladies include women over 40, black ladies, hispanic ladies, and ladies whose body types are on the larger side. And they all do fine. A good reputation and marketing that attracts the right clientele go a long way.

That paragraph was for you, now this next one is for the general public (so you don't think I'm ranting at you, specifically.)

I could be a provider that refuses to see newbies, and most of you that are so indignant would have no problem with that. However, I decided that there WAS a way that I could feel comfortable with a newbie, and I put that option out there. No one is forced to take it. It is simply there if someone wants it. I honestly don't understand why some gents get so upset about a lady having a few options that let newbies get a quality experience without having to resort to BP or ladies who might not be safe to see. I can't seem to say it enough times... references are still an option. Sorry, just seems like that isn't really coming across. :P

Now I get that in the original post she appears to be asking for every client's personal info. I'm sure he knew the only logical answer was just to move on, and thus has received said advice. I hope he found someone more to his liking.

PS - I used to visit Chicago fairly often. Where were you?! Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

I respect your point of view. I sincerely hope that you are right.

And I used to live on the North side of Chicago, but now I live in the (non-sketchy) suburbs of Detroit. I still frequent Chicago often for business, however.

With all due respect... Bullshit!

We had a guy in our area recently, LONG time hobbyist, just up and flipped - turned over all of his info to LE. YES good guys can turn bad. I had another that I screened, who started out very good, respectful for a few years. Then at some point, over time, he started getting very aggressive with the ladies. Couldn't provide me with recent references, because he had hurt or scared them all. A few others seem to be good boys for 3-4 visits (over a 3-6 month period), then start doing bad things like NCNS, pulling off condoms on those who have intimate encounters, shorting pay, etc.

Now, reputable ladies do not post all this drama - we simply, politely ask for 2 recent reputable references - and either you have them, or you don't.
Originally Posted by Solitaire

The gents who behave for a few visits and then start showing their asses are very common. As are those who have one lady they behave with just to keep that one good reference, but treat everyone else like dirt. Fortunately word will usually get back to the "good reference" and she will stop vouching for the guy, but this is one important reason I require more than one recent reference.

I see your point, though I disagree. As long as a lady IS willing to take care of herself and her business, she can absolutely screen strictly and still get plenty of clientele. I appreciate all the compliments, but I don't think you're giving other ladies enough credit. Sure, if she doesn't take care of herself or run her business well, she's going to have trouble pulling it off. But what if I told you I know quite a few ladies who screen as stringently as I do, and look nothing like me? These ladies include women over 40, black ladies, hispanic ladies, and ladies whose body types are on the larger side. And they all do fine. A good reputation and marketing that attracts the right clientele go a long way.
Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

52, black, thick, in a smaller market, screen fairly tightly, and do just fine.

Really, it's nice of the strict-screening critics to be so deeply concerned about our potential loss of business... but I think we'll all be OK as long as we stay within our personal comfort zones. I believe it would hurt my biz way more if I were too nervous and wary to provide the quality experience I'm known for. And even more if I were locked up or hospitalized or dead.

And for the gents who insist that reviews and board presence should be "enough"- all that tells us is that you aren't LE. It says NOTHING about how you behave BCD. There are plenty of active board members who have a reputation with the ladies as complete twatwaffles (not talking about anyone on this board, I haven't been here long enough to know these things!)... hagglers/lowballers, rude, aggressive, habitual nc/ns, donation shorters, drunks, indiscreet- the whole gamut of bad behavior.

It's been repeated a few times in this thread, but would seem to bear another mention: If you don't feel comfortable with a lady's screening... just move on... and hey presto, the issue is resolved and everyone's happy!

everything caroline has said in this thread Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

caroline understands that, for whatever reason, there are those of us who will blithely, without hesitation, and with no worry for consequences, do whatever a lady asks in the process of setting up a date.

and yes, we look at you whiners, hagglers, entitled slobs, and various other types of fucktard as total and complete shitheads.

that's the difference between a hobbyist and a client.

caroline understands that, for whatever reason, there are those of us who will blithely, without hesitation, and with no worry for consequences, do whatever a lady asks in the process of setting up a date.

and yes, we look at you whiners, hagglers, entitled slobs, and various other types of fucktard as total and complete shitheads.

that's the difference between a hobbyist and a client. Originally Posted by john_deere

John Deere, thanks for clarifying that. That's what I was beginning to think.

I'm not answering for Tiffani, but I am in the same boat that she's in. In Atlanta the popular board is TER. In the past I would post there and rarely get dates from there. Every now and then I'll get requests from P411. The vast majority of my dates come from Eros. More often than not those gentlemen know nothing of the different boards and have no idea what a review is. Which is a good thing for me. I think reviews are a necessary evil. Originally Posted by Ansley

I always thought that a hobbyist was anyone who indulged in the "hobby," i.e., engaged the services of a "provider." But apparently EROS gives you a higher class of "john", bringing you cash with no questions asked. I guess I just saw ECCIE as an opportunity for a "john" to be more well-informed.

I'm glad that I have involved myself in this thread and learned what is thought of my wanting to be more well-informed. I'm a lower class of "john."

I always thought that a hobbyist was anyone who indulged in the "hobby," i.e., engaged the services of a "provider." But apparently EROS gives you a higher class of "john", bringing you cash with no questions asked. I guess I just saw ECCIE as an opportunity for a "john" to be more well-informed.

I'm glad that I have involved myself in this thread and learned what is thought of my wanting to be more well-informed. I'm a lower class of "john." Originally Posted by Smooth Sailing

I never said anything about class. I simply stated that I rarely get business from the message boards.

I didn't mention my screening because that is my business and something I'm not willing to speak of. I do have a very strict screening process and something I won't budge on. For the years that I have been in this business my screening hasn't let me down. Sure I've lost money, but it's money I don't regret losing.

I always thought that a hobbyist was anyone who indulged in the "hobby," i.e., engaged the services of a "provider." But apparently EROS gives you a higher class of "john", bringing you cash with no questions asked. I guess I just saw ECCIE as an opportunity for a "john" to be more well-informed.

I'm glad that I have involved myself in this thread and learned what is thought of my wanting to be more well-informed. I'm a lower class of "john." Originally Posted by Smooth Sailing

No. This is wrong.

Being well informed is not a bad thing. Listening to the bad advice of other guys and thinking you know "how to hobby properly" which is what usually happens on this board can make you a pain in the rear and an unnecessary hassle to deal with.

"Hobbyists" make things too difficult by trying to withhold money until after the session, demanding to be the first appointment of the day, reverse clock watching (meaning being the kind of guy that hopes/tries to go over the appointment time by 20 minutes, leaving disappointed if she DOESN'T give you extra time, and bitching to no end if she shorts you by 5 minutes), rarely tip (even for great service), think that P411 okays should be the last word of screening, etc. etc. I could go on.

"Clients" on the other hand typically behave totally differently. They rarely pull any of the stunts I listed. They are genuinely just there to have a good time, laugh, have a drink, enjoy the attention of a sexy lady for a while, and then go on their merry way. They don't complicate the experience by trying to be "smarter than her" about it. They don't over think it. They don't take the advice of gentlemen who are NOT the ones going to be serving them.

Who do you think wants to help you have a better experience? The guy on the internet who has never met you, never will, doesn't care about you, and has no vested interest in how wonderful your hobby life is? Or the lady who will be spending time with you, hoping to show you a great time, hoping you will come back again and again, and is hoping to enjoy you, also?

I'm not saying every lady is awesome and every "hobbyist" is bad. I'm saying a lot of you more vocal posters have gotten too bogged down in "how to do this" that you've forgotten how to just relax and enjoy it and let the lady have a good experience with you. I'm always so stressed out when I know I'm about to see a guy that is a typical "hobbyist" and chances are good that I won't even set up the appointment. "Clients" however, are a joy to see. Neither is paying more, but I guarantee you the client that makes me feel comfortable and relaxed and lets me just enjoy him gets a better experience, and probably a lot of the extras that the hobbyist is "hobbying" himself right out of.

Most of the newbies that see me and have a fantastic time never would have had that experience if they had taken "hobbyist" advice first. IJS.

Caroline, thanks so much for taking the time to explain the differences.

No. This is wrong.

Being well informed is not a bad thing. Listening to the bad advice of other guys and thinking you know "how to hobby properly" which is what usually happens on this board can make you a pain in the rear and an unnecessary hassle to deal with.

"Hobbyists" make things too difficult by trying to withhold money until after the session, demanding to be the first appointment of the day, reverse clock watching (meaning being the kind of guy that hopes/tries to go over the appointment time by 20 minutes, leaving disappointed if she DOESN'T give you extra time, and bitching to no end if she shorts you by 5 minutes), rarely tip (even for great service), think that P411 okays should be the last word of screening, etc. etc. I could go on.

"Clients" on the other hand typically behave totally differently. They rarely pull any of the stunts I listed. They are genuinely just there to have a good time, laugh, have a drink, enjoy the attention of a sexy lady for a while, and then go on their merry way. They don't complicate the experience by trying to be "smarter than her" about it. They don't over think it. They don't take the advice of gentlemen who are NOT the ones going to be serving them.

Who do you think wants to help you have a better experience? The guy on the internet who has never met you, never will, doesn't care about you, and has no vested interest in how wonderful your hobby life is? Or the lady who will be spending time with you, hoping to show you a great time, hoping you will come back again and again, and is hoping to enjoy you, also?

I'm not saying every lady is awesome and every "hobbyist" is bad. I'm saying a lot of you more vocal posters have gotten too bogged down in "how to do this" that you've forgotten how to just relax and enjoy it and let the lady have a good experience with you. I'm always so stressed out when I know I'm about to see a guy that is a typical "hobbyist" and chances are good that I won't even set up the appointment. "Clients" however, are a joy to see. Neither is paying more, but I guarantee you the client that makes me feel comfortable and relaxed and lets me just enjoy him gets a better experience, and probably a lot of the extras that the hobbyist is "hobbying" himself right out of.

Most of the newbies that see me and have a fantastic time never would have had that experience if they had taken "hobbyist" advice first. IJS. Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

So then why did Tiffani use her little slam in the post above? Not really directed at you, but directed at her, because I know you can't speak for her. I don't do any of the things that you say, so I guess I'm not a hobbyist. But because her post came right after my "questioning" of the rationale, it seemed to be pointed at me. Simply because I stated if guys followed the same logic as many of you, we would not see any of you. And that's a fact.

Thank you, Caroline. That is an excellent explanation of the difference. I might add, the "hobbyists" who are so steeped in the board culture have a very "us against them" approach, while "clients" are able to view each encounter as simply a coming together of two individuals.

Thank you, Caroline. That is an excellent explanation of the difference. I might add, the "hobbyists" who are so steeped in the board culture have a very "us against them" approach, while "clients" are able to view each encounter as simply a coming together of two individuals. Originally Posted by Bijou Neko

I am not "us against them." But I did point out if we followed the same logic as many of you, we would not see any of you. Does that make sense either?

I'm not saying every lady is awesome and every "hobbyist" is bad. I'm saying a lot of you more vocal posters have gotten too bogged down in "how to do this" that you've forgotten how to just relax and enjoy it and let the lady have a good experience with you. Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

And how do we know that we can trust you? Please elaborate.

I'm always so stressed out when I know I'm about to see a guy that is a typical "hobbyist" and chances are good that I won't even set up the appointment.. Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

I have had the opposite experience. My only "bad" experiences in this were due to not following the advice of experienced people on this board. My best experiences were with verified, reviewed providers from this board.

EDIT: In view of new comments as I was writing this (har-- wall of text incoming), I wanted to note that I'm not trying to be "us" against "them." I'm simply trying to educate because I do not agree with you, and Socratic method for debate is uncanny when it comes to helping people see your point of view.

52, black, thick, in a smaller market, screen fairly tightly, and do just fine.

Really, it's nice of the strict-screening critics to be so deeply concerned about our potential loss of business... but I think we'll all be OK as long as we stay within our personal comfort zones. I believe it would hurt my biz way more if I were too nervous and wary to provide the quality experience I'm known for. And even more if I were locked up or hospitalized or dead. Originally Posted by Bijou Neko

First, I agree 100%. It's your business and your body. You are entitled to whatever practices you choose. If you are happy with your business, then what else needs to be said?

Second, I infer from your physical description comment that thought I was being adversarial. I didn't mean to ever imply that ladies that do not match Caroline's physical description are not absolutely gorgeous and fantastic. There are many gentlemen out here that have varying perspectives on what is beautiful.

Where I disagree with you and Caroline is that while I think there are many fantastic ladies (eccie ladies are amazing: you are la crème de la crème), the brutal reality and as harsh as it sounds, 50% of women have below average appeal. There is an important concept in business: know your product. If you think you have a million dollar product, but the public thinks its worth 20 cents, you're going to go broke because no one will pay your demands. Obviously that is an extreme example, but I think the concept can be extrapolated. It's important to understand your worth.

Think about it this way: what does every provider do if she's getting 8 appointments a day but only wants 3? She tightens screening to make sure she's seeing classy guys and raises per prices. She might as well make more for those 3 session, right? That's exactly what she should do. If there is too much demand, choking supply controls prices (i.e., raises prices), which is good for her. BUT as many provider do not want to admit, the opposite is also true. If you are not getting the business you want, you seriously have to address your pricing and screening, and it's very important that young providers understand this. I've heard many, many providers upset on these forums (and others) because they don't understand why they aren't getting business. The answer is simple: lower prices and loosen screening. Does that mean there is more risk: absolutely. Does that mean that she won't be making as much: possibly (one could theoretically sell on volume as well). Only that provider can decide if the risk, longer hours, and likely lower profit are worth it to her.

But I must again assert: when providers insist "every provider is 'worth' $400/hour and should always use the strictest of screening," they are doing a real disservice to providers with an unsustainable business model. They are imbuing those providers with a mentality that they should always charge $x.00 and should always screen strictly. Respectfully, that mentality that may work for you, but entitlement practices has lost site of, not only this business, but business as a whole. Yes, it is your product. You are entitled to whatever practices you wish. But everyone is not you. Its important to understand that there is a difference between entitled (i.e., can) and what's good for business (i.e., should = making a good profit). In short, many providers that aren't making money read these comments and assume that means that they do have a competitive product when they really do not.

caroline understands that, for whatever reason, there are those of us who will blithely, without hesitation, and with no worry for consequences, do whatever a lady asks in the process of setting up a date.

and yes, we look at you whiners, hagglers, entitled slobs, and various other types of fucktard as total and complete shitheads.

that's the difference between a hobbyist and a client. Originally Posted by john_deere

Hmm, I don't believe my dissent was "whining," "haggling," or "entitled." It certainly didn't reek of "fucktard." While several dissenters in this thread lack rationale or reasoning behind their point of view, many more have persuasive and reasoned perspectives.

And how do we know that we can trust you? Please elaborate. Originally Posted by Smooth Sailing

you can trust girls as much as you allow them to trust YOU.

obviously there's the issue of a girl just not being attractive or any fun, but i think most "bad experiences" are self inflicted gunshot wounds resulting from feeling entitled to the fulfillment of unrealistic expectations.