Oh and DD, I COMPLETELY agree with your points on the "rich". I think people forget the concept of Capitalism was Risk/Reward. The greater the risk, the greater the potential reward. As a sales manager I see this all the time. A HUGE percentage of my income is 'at risk'. If I want to get paid, I have to sell. When I do well, I can make a lot of money. But when I don't, I make a LOT less. But for years a lot of the office pukes, like the accountants and admin assistants get jealous because they are stuck making the same amount no matter how hard they work. So I ask them, would you be willing to give up half of your salary, put it at risk, and if you do REALLY well, you can make it back and then some, but if you don't, you lose it. To a PERSON they say "HELL NO!". So in other words, they want all the reward and none of the risk. Doesn't work like that. They go hand-in-hand.
Same goes for our employment sector. Small Business Owners run a HUGE risk, often putting up their own savings to get started. If they fail, they're fucked. A good friend of mine had a business that on a couple of occasions he had to take out a loan to make payroll! Now he's grown his business to several businesses and he's a multi-millionaire. Why should be be excessively taxed for being successful? After all, if he pays 1% of his income in tax, it's more money that I will pay all year!
And lets not forget the BIG issue. My friend now employs over 100 people, all of them making well above minimum wage. A 'poor' person can't do that. Hell I can't do that! If his return on his investment drops to a point where he's no longer making what he needs relevant to the risk (i.e. through taxes), he's forced to lay people off. The economic impact of that happening are far greater than the tax that was collected!
Originally Posted by Sens55
Sens, you make some good points. However, poor people employ tens of millions of people. There is both direct and indirect employment. Poor people have caused the building of many businesses that they do not have a direct interest, but because of their patronage, they indirectly create jobs. It could be a Walmart, McDonalds, a local grocery store, etc. Every car built in American and purchased by a poor person helps to create jobs in this country, albeit indirectly. Yes those cars do include many Toyota, Hondas, BMW, Mercedes, etc. Not just American car companies, but cars built in America. Now if these poor people no longer have this sort of income, those places go out of business. "Rich" people can/will only buy so many Big Macs, or cars, or steaks at the grocery store. A "fair tax" would actually cause much unemployment. Let's face it, most of our money has a trickle up effect. The "rich" end up with it eventually.
Bottom line is this, and I learned this from an accounting teacher in college. When people would come up to him and ask him how to get out of taxes, he told them to quit working. No income, no tax. We've have a progressive system and it isn't like anyone making large sums of money does not know how they tax system works. You make more, you pay more, fair or not. You don't want to pay more, don't make as much. We have all heard the saying that life is not fair, that applies to taxes as well. We can complain all we want, but it won't change and we will continue to have the IRS.
I am a patriot of this great country, I pay my taxes and I recognize the taxes must be paid as the price for living in what is arguably the best country this planet has ever been blessed with. With paying taxes come certain benefits. I travel on paved roads, I have clean water and air (compared to some places. LOL) and I am lucky enough to have the security provided by millions of young men and women draping the proverbial security blanket over this country. Even though my parents paid for my school as a child, we as Americans have the ability to educate the country as a whole with the taxes we pay. When did it become so unpatriotic to be proud of what your taxes provide and to pay one's fair share of taxes?
Sens, you are also absolutely right about taxes are passed on to us as consumers from companies. But do you think the savings would be passed along to us if we did away with corporate income taxes and just relied on taxes from payroll? Let's assume you buy something that cost $100. A corporation is probably paying an estimated $2.80 on taxes off of that sale. That is not a lot. You pay more in sales tax on a $100 purchase. Plus, we know that many, many people are not on payrolls, but get paid in cash. This is a way to ensure some taxes are contributed in their "name". Think of all the waiters and waitresses that do not report all of their income, and there are a lot of them.
Also, if everyone was a salesman and was willing to take the risk you take, who would be left to buy the goods or services. I know many hard working people that work much harder than those that are make a lot of money. I also know many well off people that work their ass off. One thing some of those people have in common is that they work their tails off, the difference is that some are better compensated for it. There are farmers bailing hay that get paid crap. There are some that shuffle papers that make a mint. But that is the profession they have, in large part because of education. But, like I said, life is not fair.
And Sens, tell the accountant the next time he/she complains about what you make, tell them because they are not a value added entity to the company. They are an expense.
Edit:
I do apologize because I was thinking I was posting in the Flat Tax thread. I'm going to leave this post because it is a response to Sens even though I was pointing out more flat tax points. Although the flat tax is a Tea Party issue.
