Typical

Your A Fn idiot, you anti-Amaerican

Your A Fn idiot, you anti-Amaerican Originally Posted by Dooeey

^^^ Lookee here folks - Gooey Dooeey has been lurking on eccie for 8 "fn" years. He finally screwed up the "fn" courage to make his first post and it's a BEAUT!

Not sure who it's directed at, but you gotta admire his grammar, spelling and punctuation! And his clever, parsimonious use of words and "fn" abbreviations!

It's always heartening to see another well-educated, polished, worthy and articulate intellectual join the fray!

Another product of DemLib teacher's Unions.Socialism education matters more than anything else.
National socialism Uber alles.

BTW - did U see that the ride service Uber was targeted by the Libdems and OBLM for "Racism" in name ??? "Superiority" in titles is 'racist'.

Yes - but when Omar read that National Socialism used "Uber alles" in the national anthem in the 1930's - and persecuted Jewish People - she put a halt to that very quickly.

"Uber" is safe for now.

He's done. Like you stated you were.

Any citations for your lies? I'll wait. (As the yids say) Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

Wanna bet? IB will show up sooner or later to whoop your ass. Until then, you'll have to be content with my mild floggings. I really don't have the patience to keep trying to engage you. You have yet to show yourself capable of logic, coherence or original thought. And I've given you plenty of chances.

How many of Noam Chomsky's 100+ books have you actually read? Of course, there's no need to read ALL of them, since the polemics are essentially the same. Which underscores his problem. Chomsky is congenitally incapable of growing or changing his views based on new facts or information. The Pol Pot regime can slaughter one-fifth of Cambodia's entire population, and instead of placing this atrocity in the same league as Hitler's Holocaust of the Jews, your hero Noam downplays and likens it to the fate of Nazi collaborators after we liberated France in 1944! That's not only obscene - it's also proof of your hero's profound moral depravity.

Citations are numerous and easily found - both in your local library and online. The fact that you are unaware of the debate that has raged for decades around Chomsky's amoral hypocrisy, with the most stinging attacks coming from other leftists, is more evidence of your own ignorance and shallowness regarding any serious intellectual discourse.

Noam Chomsky has been a denier of the Cambodian Killing Fields Holocaust since 1979 when he co-authored "The Political Economy of Human Rights" with Edward Herman. People who actually possess a moral compass have described that book as a "systematic whitewashing of totalitarian slaughter in Indochina" and noted "the alert reader will detect countless falsifications of facts and evidence". Are you an alert reader? Do you read at all, or just watch youtube propaganda videos?

Writing in 1981, Stephen Morris (then a fellow at Harvard's Russian Research Center) ended his review of the above-referenced book as follows:

“There remains only one question to be asked? How is a book like this possible? How can two professional academics, employed by two of this nation’s most prestigious universities, dare to write a book which is such a travesty of academic standards?

The answer is unfortunately a simple one. The authors are totalitarian political ideologues, with an intense emotional commitment to the cause of anti-Americanism. Operating on the principle that “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” they have wholeheartedly endorsed the struggle of two of the world’s most ruthlessly brutal regimes. The standards of professional conduct, which they are capable of applying in their professional fields, simply collapse in the face of the political task to which they have committed themselves.

But the attempt to whitewash or apologize for tyranny was not the only option open to Professors Chomsky and Herman. Many members of the European left have had the courage to admit that the political movements whose victory they had advocated for so many years were now morally indefensible. Unfortunately for the credibility of America’s new left, its most prominent spokesmen have been unable to muster such courage.”

Speaking of lies, Chomsky has spewed a ton of them over the years. His lies are now so voluminous that some of his critics have done the yeoman's work of compiling, cataloguing and exposing them as such.

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/200chomskylies.pdf


IMO his Killing Fields denial ranks above all the others as his most despicable lie, the one for which he deserves to burn slowly in hell. It's unfortunate that Chomsky's academic sponsors back in 1980 didn't grant the jackass a paid research sabbatical to visit Cambodia. He could have brushed up on his archeological skills while unearthing all of Pol Pot's mass graves. Perhaps he could have supervised the body count, which wound up at 1.7 million or 21% of the country's population, according to Yale University's Cambodia Genocide Program. Instead, your hero kept his distance, denying it all while living in comfort back in Cambridge, MA. What a missed educational opportunity that was!

Wanna bet? IB will show up sooner or later to whoop your ass. Until then, you'll have to be content with my mild floggings. I really don't have the patience to keep trying to engage you. You have yet to show yourself capable of logic, coherence or original thought. And I've given you plenty of chances.

How many of Chomsky's 100+ books have you actually read? Of course, there's no need to read ALL of them, since the polemics are essentially the same. Which underscores his problem. Chomsky is congenitally incapable of growing or changing his views based on new facts or information. The Pol Pot regime can slaughter one-fifth of Cambodia's entire population, and instead of placing this atrocity in the same league as Hitler's Holocaust of the Jews, your hero Noam downplays and likens it to the fate of Nazi collaborators after we liberated France in 1944! That's not only obscene - it's also proof of your hero's profound moral depravity.

Citations are numerous and easily found - both in your local library and online. The fact that you are unaware of the debate that has raged for decades around Chomsky's amoral hypocrisy, with the most stinging attacks coming from other leftists, is proof of your own ignorance and shallowness regarding any serious intellectual discourse.

Noam Chomsky has been a denier of the Cambodian Killing Fields Holocaust since 1979 when he co-authored "The Political Economy of Human Rights" with Edward Herman. People who actually possess a moral compass have described that book as a "systematic whitewashing of totalitarian slaughter in Indochina" and note "the alert reader will detect countless falsifications of facts and evidence". Are you an alert reader? Do you read at all, or just watch youtube propaganda videos?

Writing in 1981, Stephen Morris (then a fellow at Harvard's Russian Research Center) ended his review of the above-referenced book as follows:



Speaking of lies, Chomsky has spewed a ton of them over the years. His lies are now so numerous that many of his critics have done the yeoman's work of compiling, cataloguing and exposing them as such.

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/200chomskylies.pdf


IMO his Killing Fields denial ranks above all the others as his most despicable lie, the one for which he deserves to burn slowly in hell. It's unfortunate that Chomsky's academic sponsors back in 1980 didn't grant the jackass a paid research sabbatical to visit Cambodia. He could have brushed up on his archeological skills while unearthing all of Pol Pot's mass graves. Perhaps he could have supervised the body count, which wound up at 1.7 million or 21% of the country's population, according to Yale University's Cambodia Genocide Program. Instead, your hero kept his distance, denying it all while living in comfort back in Cambridge, MA. What a missed educational opportunity that was!


Originally Posted by lustylad

one wonders how and why Ecky9.5k so worships this socialist idiot.


the top 250 .. bahaaaa


The Top 250 Chomsky Lies Compiled by Paul Bogdanor


“He begins as a preacher to the world and ends as an intellectual crook.” – Arthur Schlesinger (Commentary, December 1969)


“Noam Chomsky skittles and skithers all over the political landscape to distract the reader’s attention from the plain truth.” – Sidney Hook (The Humanist, March-April 1971)



“In his ideological fanaticism he constantly shifts his arguments and bends references, quotations and facts, while declaring his ‘commitment to find the truth.’” – Leopold Labedz (Encounter, July 1980)



“Even on the rare occasions when Mr. Chomsky is dealing with facts and not with fantasies, he exaggerates by a factor of, plus or minus, four or five.” – Walter Laqueur (The New Republic, March 24, 1982)


“After many years, I came to the conclusion that everything he says is false. He will lie just for the fun of it. Every one of his arguments was tinged and coded with falseness and pretense. It was like playing chess with extra pieces. It was all fake.” – Paul Postal (The New Yorker, March 31, 2003)


Contents


1. Communist Mass Murderers: General 1

2. Communist Mass Murderers: Vietnam 5

3. Communist Mass Murderers: Cambodia 9

4. Modern History 13

5. The Cold War 17

6. The Vietnam War 21

7. The Cambodian Wars 24

8. Latin America 27

9. Nicaraguan Civil War 31

10. Terrorist Atrocities 35

11. The War on Terrorism 38

12. Middle East Politics 42

13. The Arab-Israeli Wars 46

14. The Arab-Israeli Peace Process 50

15. Collaboration with Holocaust Deniers 54

16. Falsifications of Sources: Vietnam 57

17. Falsifications of Sources: Cambodia 60

18. Falsifications of Sources: Israel 64

19. Falsifications of Sources: Other 67

20. Worthless Sources: Vietnam 71

21. Worthless Sources: Cambodia 75

22. Worthless Sources: Other 78

23. Numbers Games 82

24. Political Ideas 85

25. Lies About Himself 89


Communist Mass Murderers: General


10. The Lie:“in comparison to the conditions imposed by US tyranny and violence [in Vietnam], East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise.”1


The Truth: Civilian deaths in peacetime Eastern Europe dwarfed civilian deaths in wartime Vietnam. The Soviets and their collaborators murdered 4 million in Ukraine;2200,000 in Hungary;3 185,000 in East Germany;4 150,000 in Poland;5 120,000 in Romania;6 etc. Other crimes were the murder of over 500,000 POWs7 and the rape of at least 2 million women by the Red Army.8 The highest credible estimate of civilian deaths in wartime Vietnam is 627,000.9 A substantial proportion of these deaths were inflicted by the communist side.


thanks lusty! i'm gonna use these as "Chomskyisms" and educate young Ecky9.5k lie by lie about the true nature of his bullshit peddling mentor


BAHHAHAAAAAAAA

one wonders how and why Ecky9.5k so worships this socialist idiot.


the top 250 .. bahaaaa


The Top 250 Chomsky Lies Compiled by Paul Bogdanor


“He begins as a preacher to the world and ends as an intellectual crook.” – Arthur Schlesinger (Commentary, December 1969)


“Noam Chomsky skittles and skithers all over the political landscape to distract the reader’s attention from the plain truth.” – Sidney Hook (The Humanist, March-April 1971)



“In his ideological fanaticism he constantly shifts his arguments and bends references, quotations and facts, while declaring his ‘commitment to find the truth.’” – Leopold Labedz (Encounter, July 1980)



“Even on the rare occasions when Mr. Chomsky is dealing with facts and not with fantasies, he exaggerates by a factor of, plus or minus, four or five.” – Walter Laqueur (The New Republic, March 24, 1982)


“After many years, I came to the conclusion that everything he says is false. He will lie just for the fun of it. Every one of his arguments was tinged and coded with falseness and pretense. It was like playing chess with extra pieces. It was all fake.” – Paul Postal (The New Yorker, March 31, 2003)


Contents


1. Communist Mass Murderers: General 1

2. Communist Mass Murderers: Vietnam 5

3. Communist Mass Murderers: Cambodia 9

4. Modern History 13

5. The Cold War 17

6. The Vietnam War 21

7. The Cambodian Wars 24

8. Latin America 27

9. Nicaraguan Civil War 31

10. Terrorist Atrocities 35

11. The War on Terrorism 38

12. Middle East Politics 42

13. The Arab-Israeli Wars 46

14. The Arab-Israeli Peace Process 50

15. Collaboration with Holocaust Deniers 54

16. Falsifications of Sources: Vietnam 57

17. Falsifications of Sources: Cambodia 60

18. Falsifications of Sources: Israel 64

19. Falsifications of Sources: Other 67

20. Worthless Sources: Vietnam 71

21. Worthless Sources: Cambodia 75

22. Worthless Sources: Other 78

23. Numbers Games 82

24. Political Ideas 85

25. Lies About Himself 89


Communist Mass Murderers: General


10. The Lie:“in comparison to the conditions imposed by US tyranny and violence [in Vietnam], East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise.”1


The Truth: Civilian deaths in peacetime Eastern Europe dwarfed civilian deaths in wartime Vietnam. The Soviets and their collaborators murdered 4 million in Ukraine;2200,000 in Hungary;3 185,000 in East Germany;4 150,000 in Poland;5 120,000 in Romania;6 etc. Other crimes were the murder of over 500,000 POWs7 and the rape of at least 2 million women by the Red Army.8 The highest credible estimate of civilian deaths in wartime Vietnam is 627,000.9 A substantial proportion of these deaths were inflicted by the communist side.


thanks lusty! i'm gonna use these as "Chomskyisms" and educate young Ecky9.5k lie by lie about the true nature of his bullshit peddling mentor


BAHHAHAAAAAAAA
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

His location is “Milky Way”.


BAHAHAHAHA

one wonders how and why Ecky9.5k so worships this socialist idiot...

thanks lusty! i'm gonna use these as "Chomskyisms" and educate young Ecky9.5k lie by lie about the true nature of his bullshit peddling mentor Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

The quotes you cited are all by well-known liberal intellectuals writing for popular left-wing publications.

What could possibly be more damning than to be so soundly and repeatedly rejected by your own faculty lounge peers??

BAAAHAHAHAHAHA!

9500 dos love his Noam Chomsky - in what way - I will be silent.

9500 is incapable of sorting out Lies of his precious narrative from Factual truth.

Like Stalin - 9500 would be lost without the marxist ideology he worships.

And the "racist" dead old white guy memes. Totally irrelevant.

The quotes you cited are all by well-known liberal intellectuals writing for popular left-wing publications.

What could possibly be more damning than to be so soundly and repeatedly rejected by your own faculty lounge peers??

BAAAHAHAHAHAHA! Originally Posted by lustylad

He has been damned his whole career. Since the Bar Mitzvah.

Young, bourgois respectability-seeking, weak-kneed leftists at the end of the Clinton administration started to shift right. So much so that even a dumbass addict who left all real responsibilities to the VICE, just so he could say he had a cool job, needed only one vote to defeat a man dedicated to solving climate change. A problem that still persists.

The perceptive world knew this. Thus, we had the worst foreign enemy terrorist attack while elementary kids showed our president how to read.

There are not enough real reformers in power right now. What you are all witnessing right is the breeding grounds for a hard shift to the left. In one or two generations, the children of renters who will be thrown out tomorrow, the children of citizens removing Confederate memorials, and the children of the children in the concentration camps on the border will remember.

They will teach your children. They will teach your children that Chomsky is relevant. Always WILL be relevant. Social media almost guarantees it. I am doing my part.

The quotes you cited are all by well-known liberal intellectuals writing for popular left-wing publications.

What could possibly be more damning than to be so soundly and repeatedly rejected by your own faculty lounge peers??

BAAAHAHAHAHAHA! Originally Posted by lustylad

exactly! of the lot of them i only recognized Schlesinger and Paul Postal. regardless, what an "honor" to be ripped a new arse by one's fellow libtard socialists, eh?


BAHHAAAA


if Chomsky was black in the 1960's and joined the Black Panthers Huey Newton would kick him out for being too radical ..


BAHHAAAAA
.

thanks lusty! i'm gonna use these as "Chomskyisms" and educate young Ecky9.5k lie by lie about the true nature of his bullshit peddling mentor Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

So there's this guy by the name of Paul Bogdanor that apparently has as his mission to discredit Noam Chomsky. I have no real problem with that in principle. If you think somebody harms the world by misleading people and you think discrediting them would help prevent others from being led astray I suppose that's fine.

As an admirer of Chomsky I'm frequently pointed to Bogdanor's work in refutation of Chomsky. Bogdanor is published. In fact he contributed to an anti-Chomsky book by David Horowitz. Whatever one may think of Horowitz, you have to admit he's at least a fairly prominent pundit. So one might on the surface not expect Bogdanor to be a complete hack. Or would you? I guess I'm trying to say that there are degrees of lunacy. Arch neocons like Horowitz of course are not well reasoned people, but while I think Horowitz is way off base he is frequently in the media, has published some widely read books, etc. So it's not like he's completely bonkers.

So I'm told to go look at Bogdanor's Top 200 Chomsky Lies. And so I have. Wow. It's really bad. This is not really worth responding to.

But on the other hand I am regularly pointed to this by Chomsky's critics. Perhaps it would be useful to take some time and address it. Maybe just some of it. To give a sense of how bad it is. That way I can at least have something to point to to explain why considering Bogdanor is not worthwhile.

So here I'm going to respond to the first 10 lies and then maybe in the future I'll respond to more. Or maybe I won't.

OK, so the first thing that needs to be kept in mind when addressing Chomsky's 200 supposed lies is this. What is a lie? If someone disagrees with me, does that mean they are lying? Obviously not. What if they rely on a source and that source turns out to be wrong. Is that a lie? I think it's pretty obvious that it is not.

What if someone makes an error? Does that mean they lied? What if they won't admit their error? That's not a lie. It could be a character defect. It could be worthy of criticism. But it's not a lie. Dictionary.com says that a lie is "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive." It seems to me that merely knowing what a lie is would shrink Paul's list down to about nothing. But I haven't yet read them all, so we'll see. Here are his "lies" with Chomsky's words in blue, Bogdanor's in red, and mine in black. Bogdanor presents these in a countdown fashion, starting with 10 and ending with 1. I'm going to start with 1 just because it is so outrageous and must be emphasized. I'll take the remainder in the order they come from Bogdanor.

And these first 10 "lies" are under a section "10 Chomsky Lies About Communist Mass Murderers – General"

1. The Lie: “Of course, no one supposed that Mao literally murdered tens of millions of people, or that he ‘intended’ that any die at all.”20

The Truth: Mao spoke of sacrificing 300 million people, or half of China’s population. He warned that the policies he later adopted would kill 50 million people. Grain exported by the communists was sufficient to feed the numbers who starved to death, which they privately estimated at 30 million.21

This one is repeated constantly in discussion forums and blog comment sections as an example of Chomsky apologetics for Communist atrocities. In isolation it does sort of look like that. Bogdanor doesn't actually say that this is what Chomsky is doing. He presents it as if Chomsky thinks Mao wasn't expecting people to die from his policies. So we get a double whammy here. It's presented in a way that leads someone to have a mistaken understanding of Chomsky's views regarding Mao and secondly it's further mischaracterized by Bogdanor.

The solution as is typical is to just read what Chomsky said in context, which you can do here. But I'll summarize Chomsky's point.

Mao instituted polices that lead to famines in China. These killed tens of millions of people. Did Mao set out to starve people? No. What he did was he instituted polices that he knew would lead to massive death. But for him that was worth it. If he could have done it without killing so many he probably would have. But this does not absolve him. He is still guilty and justly condemned for this action.

In the same way Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan. Did he do it because he wanted to see poor Africans die? Obviously not. But this is the only source for life saving drugs for many poor Africans. Clinton would know that large scale death would result. But he thought it was worth it. The fact that he would have probably preferred to avoid killing many thousands of poor Africans does not absolve him. He engaged in actions that lead to that predictable result. Just as we rightly condemn Mao for tens of millions of starved Chinese peasants we should apply the same principles to our own side. Or if anything we should be even more condemnatory towards our side since these are the ones we can control and are responsible for.

For Chomsky the emphasis is on the fact that Mao cannot be absolved. Bogdanor turns it into a quote that makes it appear that Chomsky is in fact attempting to absolve Mao. He further critiques it as if Chomsky is unaware that massive death was the predictable consequence of Mao's policies. I'd be tempted to call Bogdanor a liar, but in truth I expect he's just lazy.

10. The Lie: “in comparison to the conditions imposed by US tyranny and violence, East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise.”

The Truth: The communists murdered 4 million people in the Ukraine; 753,000 in Poland; 360,000 in Romania; 300,000 in Belarus; 200,000 in Hungary; 100,000 in East Germany; 100,000 in Lithuania; 70,000-100,000 in Yugoslavia; 30,000-40,000 in Bulgaria; 20,000 in Czechoslovakia; and 5,000 in Albania. Other atrocities included the murder of over 500,000 POWs in Soviet captivity and the mass rape of at least 2 million women by the Red Army.

The source is available here. The context is a speech a speech in Congress by Vaclav Havel who contrasted the Soviet Union and the US as one being a nightmare the other a defender of freedom, to great applause. Chomsky is not one to deny that the Soviet Union was a hideous and murderous regime. His point is that the US is a very murderous regime as well, and likewise a nightmare for many that suffer under its boot. The cartoonish presentation from Havel and self congratulation of those in Washington is kind of hard to take.

He asks us to consider Southeast Asia, Central America, and the West Bank. The West Bank is regarded as the world's largest open air prison by many respectable people. Malnourishment is severe. Unemployment is around 40%. Occasionally bombs are falling. The Soviet Union cannot claim a bombing campaign against any country that is on the scale perpetuated against Southeast Asia for their crime of preferring the wrong government. And in Haiti, with 70% unemployment where the lucky employed at the time Chomsky wrote this were making 38 cents per day, had a Haitian went to sleep and woke up in Poland, with high employment levels, state provided health services, and a functioning education system, they'd have probably thought they'd died and woke up in Paradise.

That's not to say that the Soviet Union was not responsible for massive atrocities. But in some places where US tyranny and violence is imposed, things are actually worse. I'd say that assessment, rather than being a lie, would more accurately be described as the truth. But if you don't agree that's fine. Reasonable people might not reach the same judgments on matters like this. So in other words one could decide that Chomsky is wrong, but you couldn't say that he lied.

9. The Lie: “Western norms require that we compare Eastern and Western Europe to demonstrate our virtue and their vileness, a childish absurdity… Elementary rationality would lead someone interested in alternative social and economic paths to compare societies that were more or less alike before the Cold War began, say Russia or Brazil… Such comparisons, if honestly undertaken, would elicit some self-reflection among decent people…”

The Truth: In Russia, Lenin’s food confiscations inflicted famine on over 33 million people, including 7 million children, and left 4-5 million dead; Stalin’s assault on the peasants killed another 8.5 million, half of them children.4 Brazil experienced nothing of the kind.

What is the relevance of listing various Soviet crimes? The point is that saying "Our culture is so much better because Britain is a better place to live than the Ukraine" is silly because Britain has been different for centuries. Russia and Brazil started at similar places prior to the Cold War. Since then Brazil has been subjected to US domination and Russia has been subjected to Soviet domination. In some ways perhaps Brazil is better, but in other ways (economically, with regards to access to health services) Russia is better. Honest comparison require that we consider countries that started from similar places. How is this a lie?

8. The Lie: “Internal [Soviet] crimes abated [after 1945]; though remaining very serious they were scarcely at the level of typical American satellites, a commonplace in the Third World, where the norms of Western propriety do not hold.”

The Truth: In 1947, the Soviets withheld food from famine victims, causing up to 1.5 million deaths.6 During 1945-53, there were over 300,000 officially recorded deaths in the Gulag; by 1953, the slave population exceeded 5.2 million.7 No American satellite – whether in Europe or in Latin America – was guilty of anything even remotely comparable.

Take a look at what Chomsky offers in the context of this quote. Some evidence, this time in the form of testimony from a Guatemalan refugee, that in fact his assessment as we approach the 90's was true. Reasonable people might disagree. Chomsky if he were so inclined might offer additional evidence to support his claim. Bogdanor might offer counter evidence. All good. It's not a lie in any case.

7 The Lie: “In the Soviet sphere of influence, torture appears to have been on the decline since the death of Stalin… Since it has declined in the Soviet sphere since the death of Stalin, it would appear that this cancerous growth is largely a Free World phenomenon.”8

The Truth: Until the late 1980s, the Soviets ran 1,000 concentration camps where at least 2 million inmates endured constant violence. Torture was systematic in Soviet satellites in the Third World.9

Chomsky cites an Amnesty International report to justify his claim. Regurgitating the findings of respectable investigative human rights agencies is not lying.

6. The Lie: “Imagine the reaction if the Soviet police were to deal with refuseniks in any way comparable to the Israeli [anti-riot] practices that briefly reached the television screens.”10

The Truth: The Soviet police held 10,000 dissidents in psychiatric prisons and concentration camps. An estimated 50,000 were sent to uranium mines to die of radiation poisoning.11 Such practices elicited no reaction because the Soviets did not allow them to reach the television screens.

How is it a lie to imagine how people would react to certain violent images? Who is denying that the Soviets did in fact murder these thousands and more? Who is denying that they prevented such images from being broadcast? Nobody. But we should consider how we might have reacted if the images in fact had been broadcast. It's bizarre that Bogdanor regards this as a lie.

5.The Lie: “[Regarding] China’s actions in Tibet… it is a bit too simple to say that ‘China did indeed take over a country that did not want to be taken over.’ This is by no means the general view of Western scholarship.”12

The Truth: The Chinese invasion provoked massive popular uprisings. Mao welcomed the Tibetan resistance because it could be crushed by force. State terror and man-made famine had killed up to 500,000 Tibetans by the mid-1960s.13

Once again Chomsky goes on to source that claim and otherwise discuss the complexities of regarding it as expansionist. If Chomsky has been misled by his sources (Ginsburgs and Mathos) this cannot be called a lie.

4 The Lie: “It’s clear, I believe, that the emphasis on the use of terror and violence in China was considerably less than in the Soviet Union and that the success was considerably greater in achieving a just society.”14

The Truth: China’s communists officially stated that they had executed 800,000 in the first few years of their dictatorship; unofficially, they admitted to the massacre of 2 million in just one year. Concentration camps held an estimated 8 million, with 280,000 killed annually. The communists publicly declared that they had persecuted 20-30 million as class enemies in their first decade and that there were 100 million victims of the Cultural Revolution.15

What happened in China was really bad, but a reasonable person might have regarded what happened in the Soviet Union at that point as worse, especially given that Chomsky wrote this in 1971. Strange that this is regarded as a lie.

3-The Lie: “There are many things to object to in any society. But take China, modern China; one also finds many things that are really quite admirable… [In China] a good deal of the collectivization and communization was really based on mass participation and took place after a level of understanding had been reached in the peasantry that led to this next step.”16

The Truth: The communists reduced 550 million peasants to slavery. They forced at least 90
million to work on furnace-building projects alone. When famine resulted, they cut the food ration and used mass terror to stop the peasants eating their own harvest. Victims, including children, were tortured, buried alive, strangled or mutilated.17

I think to pretend that any one society fits neatly into a category of "pure evil" is really kind of infantile. You really aren't going to be able to find any society about which something positive can't be said. If pointing that out makes someone a liar then stating truths is lying. Nobody is disputing that the communists reduced 550 million peasants to slavery and engaged in a myriad of other horrors. Despite that there are obviously going to be SOME positive things that can be said about Chinese society at that time.

Chomsky wrote this in 1971, praising some of the structures that had been developed by that time. Note the reference to "modern" China. What has happened in China since then? Only the most massive reduction in poverty that has ever happened in human history. GDP/person in inflation adjusted dollars was $700 in China in 1971. By 2009 it had increased 10 fold. If you can't say something good about that society you are blind. This does not undo the past and present horrors, which are real and are acknowledged by Chomsky. But you can still draw lessons from their society.

2-The Lie: “Also relevant is the history of collectivization in China, which, as compared with the Soviet Union, shows a much higher reliance on persuasion and mutual aid than on force and terror, and appears to have been more successful.”18

The Truth: Its culmination was the Great Leap Forward, the worst man-made catastrophe in history, in which 30 million died.19

I think it's worth looking at the full quote here. After the word "successful" we get this: "See Thomas P. Bernstein, "Leadership and Mass Mobilization in the Soviet and Chinese Collectivization Campaigns of 1929-30 and 1955-56: A Comparison," China Quarterly, No. 31 (July-September 1967), pp. 1-47, for some interesting and suggestive comments and analysis."

So what is Chomsky saying? Collectivization in China was more successful than in the Soviet Union and likewise China was more reliant on persuasion and mutual aid. Does this mean that Chinese policies didn't induce massive famines or massive purges as well? No. Does Bogdanor present any reason for concluding that Chomsky's assessment is wrong? Once again no. He cites his source, which presumably would back his claim. If his source is wrong or if he's misused it, go out and prove it. To just respond to every non-nefarious observation about China with "But so many in China died" is beside the point.

I frankly don't see a single lie here. Bogdanor would think Chomsky is wrong on some of these points. I wouldn't agree with him. But how are these lies?

Jon





You were saying?

Quote:


OK, so the first thing that needs to be kept in mind when addressing Chomsky's 200 supposed lies is this. What is a lie? If someone disagrees with me, does that mean they are lying? Obviously not. What if they rely on a source and that source turns out to be wrong. Is that a lie? I think it's pretty obvious that it is not.


What if someone makes an error? Does that mean they lied? What if they won't admit their error? That's not a lie. It could be a character defect. It could be worthy of criticism. But it's not a lie.

Jon

You were saying?


16. Falsifications of Sources: Vietnam 57

17. Falsifications of Sources: Cambodia 60

18. Falsifications of Sources: Israel 64

19. Falsifications of Sources: Other 67

20. Worthless Sources: Vietnam 71

21. Worthless Sources: Cambodia 75

22. Worthless Sources: Other 78

23. Numbers Games 82
Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

pay up guys, yeah he took the bait .. again


BAHHAHAAAAAA


.

He has been damned his whole career. Since the Bar Mitzvah.

Young, bourgois respectability-seeking, weak-kneed leftists at the end of the Clinton administration started to shift right. So much so that even a dumbass addict who left all real responsibilities to the VICE, just so he could say he had a cool job, needed only one vote to defeat a man dedicated to solving climate change. A problem that still persists.

The perceptive world knew this. Thus, we had the worst foreign enemy terrorist attack while elementary kids showed our president how to read. Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

1. It's spelled bourgeois, not bourgois.

2. The Clinton administration ended in January 2001. Four of the five quotes by liberals slamming Chomsky are dated on/prior to 1982. Way before you claim their knees went weak.

3. OBL and al Qaeda started planning the 9/11 attack years before Bush 43 ran for POTUS. Please explain how the 9/11 attacks were somehow linked to Bush's perceived flaws. If you can expound on whatever your point is, I am quite perceptive.

Oh well. At least you tried to answer in your own words. That's a start.

pay up guys, yeah he took the bait... again


BAHHAHAAAAAA Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

You win. So EU9500 knows how to google Bogdanor's name. I'm impressed. Except it's another cut and paste job.

The problem with this bigwhiteogre guy is he leads you to expect he'll clear Chomsky - but then he doesn't. He thinks character defects are better than lying, when in reality those defects keep spawning the lies.

Plus he has 240 more Chomsky lies to go.

You win. So EU9500 knows how to google Bogdanor's name. I'm impressed. Except it's another cut and paste job.

The problem with this bigwhiteogre guy is he leads you to expect he'll clear Chomsky - but then he doesn't. He thinks character defects are better than lying, when in reality those defects keep spawning the lies.

Plus he has 240 of the top 250 more Chomsky lies to go. Originally Posted by lustylad

ftfy

remember he has more than 250 lies .. this is just the top of the heap


BAHHAAA