This question I hope will be answered from a LEGAL standpoint, not a personal preference one or the right way to do something blah blah blah and is asked for information only. It in no way reflects mine or other ladies, or gents, preferences. Don't blast me please.
Ok as we have established, you can get arrested for advertising and just showing up. I don't think that needs to be rehashed.
My question is about donations before or after and the legal consequences thereof. I suspect in an operation where LE comes in for an appointment and pays up front, that is a reason to justify busting a lady for prostitution, because money was exchanged for the expectation of sex. On the other hand, mentioning, paying, offering, seeing etc money after the deed is done...well....
And I know, in some cases LE will go full service so I've heard in order to make the bust but that happens less often than them trying to do it without full service.
And I know the reasons for taking care of business up front. This question is not intended as a debate about that. Just the legal aspect.
Thoughts, opinions?
Thanks
BD (the devils advocate LOL)
- TxBrandy
- 07-22-2010, 11:20 AM
- Shackleton
- 07-22-2010, 12:14 PM
What's the question?
- TxBrandy
- 07-22-2010, 12:36 PM
LOL ok I guess my questions is --
Does it make any difference if donations are given up front or after a date if you suspect the client is an undercover agent of the law?
Does it make any difference if donations are given up front or after a date if you suspect the client is an undercover agent of the law?
- Shackleton
- 07-22-2010, 01:58 PM
Ok, here's my non-criminal lawyer take off the top of my head.
Prostitution is offer to engage, agreement to engage, or engagement in sexual conduct for a fee. So, theoretically, state must have evidence that there is a fee involved. If there is no evidence that a fee was involved then police should not arrest you, and if they do, the DA should not prosecute you, and if the DA does prosecute you, then the judge should dismiss the charges, and if the judge doesn't dismiss the charges, then the jury should not convict you, and if the jury does convict you, then the appellate court should reverse your conviction.
But, just because there has to be evidence of a fee, that evidence does not necessarily have to be LE handing you money. LE handing you money is probably about as clear and direct of evidence that there was a fee involved as you can imagine and I'm sure that's something LE and the DA would love to have, but it doesn't have to be that neat. It could be an ad where you talk about a fee for your time. It could be a phone or in-person conversation where a fee is talked about. It could be LE putting money down in plain view and saying "here's your donation" and you saying nothing in response. Probably lots of other things that would be considered evidence, direct or circumstantial (and circumstantial evidence can be enough), of a fee being involved. Things are not always black and white with the law. What you or I might not think is evidence of a fee being involved might be good enough for all those who will actually make the decisions.
Now, whether the fee was given before or after the date doesn't make one bit of difference from a theoretical perspective. From a practical perspective, however, I think it is relatively rare that LE will engage in sex to make an arrest. So, if your practice is to collect the fee only after the date, this may prevent you from being arrested because LE won't proceed with the act and thinks they don't have enough to arrest without money being offered and accepted. Or, if arrested, it may prevent you from being convicted. But, that all depends on what other evidence of an agreement of a fee for sex exists. Taking the money after the date probably won't do you one much good if you're talking about money before the date. Maybe you'll get a better plea bargain offer if evidence of a fee is weak. Or, maybe the jury won't convict. But, taking the money after the date by itself is not a silver bullet to avoid arrest and conviction for prostitution.
Prostitution is offer to engage, agreement to engage, or engagement in sexual conduct for a fee. So, theoretically, state must have evidence that there is a fee involved. If there is no evidence that a fee was involved then police should not arrest you, and if they do, the DA should not prosecute you, and if the DA does prosecute you, then the judge should dismiss the charges, and if the judge doesn't dismiss the charges, then the jury should not convict you, and if the jury does convict you, then the appellate court should reverse your conviction.
But, just because there has to be evidence of a fee, that evidence does not necessarily have to be LE handing you money. LE handing you money is probably about as clear and direct of evidence that there was a fee involved as you can imagine and I'm sure that's something LE and the DA would love to have, but it doesn't have to be that neat. It could be an ad where you talk about a fee for your time. It could be a phone or in-person conversation where a fee is talked about. It could be LE putting money down in plain view and saying "here's your donation" and you saying nothing in response. Probably lots of other things that would be considered evidence, direct or circumstantial (and circumstantial evidence can be enough), of a fee being involved. Things are not always black and white with the law. What you or I might not think is evidence of a fee being involved might be good enough for all those who will actually make the decisions.
Now, whether the fee was given before or after the date doesn't make one bit of difference from a theoretical perspective. From a practical perspective, however, I think it is relatively rare that LE will engage in sex to make an arrest. So, if your practice is to collect the fee only after the date, this may prevent you from being arrested because LE won't proceed with the act and thinks they don't have enough to arrest without money being offered and accepted. Or, if arrested, it may prevent you from being convicted. But, that all depends on what other evidence of an agreement of a fee for sex exists. Taking the money after the date probably won't do you one much good if you're talking about money before the date. Maybe you'll get a better plea bargain offer if evidence of a fee is weak. Or, maybe the jury won't convict. But, taking the money after the date by itself is not a silver bullet to avoid arrest and conviction for prostitution.
- TxBrandy
- 07-22-2010, 02:25 PM
Thats pretty much the conclusion that I came to. Thanks Shack
- GreatOne
- 07-22-2010, 06:04 PM
I think the problem is more practical than legal.
From a providers perspective, you want to know that the hobbyist has the requisite dough before you get down to business. There is no way to do that which would not be an agreement for purposes of a bust. He opens his wallet to show you the green and you continue to offer him services, that will be taken as a silent agreement. Any type of wink, hand signal, semaphore, smoke signal, etc. will be taken as an agreement.
So you have to choose which evil is lesser for you: cops or johns who want a freebie. I don't see a way to structure the meeting to avoid both.
From a providers perspective, you want to know that the hobbyist has the requisite dough before you get down to business. There is no way to do that which would not be an agreement for purposes of a bust. He opens his wallet to show you the green and you continue to offer him services, that will be taken as a silent agreement. Any type of wink, hand signal, semaphore, smoke signal, etc. will be taken as an agreement.
So you have to choose which evil is lesser for you: cops or johns who want a freebie. I don't see a way to structure the meeting to avoid both.
- dunstable
- 07-22-2010, 08:35 PM
I agree with the previous posters. One further thought is how would you refuse the fee up front in practice? Would you say "Oh no, I don't want any money"?
Some providers stipulate the donation must be deposited in an envelope without making any reference to it. That seems to me unlikely to work because to make the stipulation it has to be admitted that there is money involved.
Some providers stipulate the donation must be deposited in an envelope without making any reference to it. That seems to me unlikely to work because to make the stipulation it has to be admitted that there is money involved.
- TxBrandy
- 07-22-2010, 10:16 PM
Think my next ad is going to be "Strip Monopoly $200" or something and actually have a monopoly board set up on the bed LOL
Yea.. that was random.. not really having to do with the point but sometimes I get tired of the discussion of "quiet agreement" or intending to commit the act, etc (even though I'm the one who brought it up).
Yea.. that was random.. not really having to do with the point but sometimes I get tired of the discussion of "quiet agreement" or intending to commit the act, etc (even though I'm the one who brought it up).
- Chica Chaser
- 07-24-2010, 08:56 PM
LOL ok I guess my questions is --The way I understand it, before or after doesn't matter, you don't have to be given the fee at all. Just the mere act of showing up at an outcall location constitutes "agreement" for the dreaded exchange of sex for money.
Does it make any difference if donations are given up front or after a date if you suspect the client is an undercover agent of the law? Originally Posted by TxBrandy
It may be different in different states but the way I have read the Texas and Arizona statutes, just agreeing to accept money for sex is enough to get you a free ride downtown. The actual transfer never has to be made. The bottom line is that if you walk into a situation like that, you're busted. Then its up to the prosecutor to make the case against you, but you're still headed downtown for a day or two regardless.
I recall a sting that happened a couple years ago in Orlando where they called many ladies out to some hotel and busted them as they showed up and entered the room. No clothes removed, no cash exchanged hands, they were hustled to another room and held. LE was even kind enough to provide a monitor in the room for them to watch the proceedings going on the main room. IIRC, there were 20+ providers picked off that night. It received heavy news coverage but I would have to dig the actual articles out of Google.