we have been here before: to mask or not to mask

dilbert firestorm's Avatar
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/ne...244267462.html


What did people say about wearing masks in the 1918 pandemic? It sounds familiar

By Charles Duncan

July 21, 2020 11:36 AM

In 1918, an influenza pandemic devastated the world's population

A different pandemic swept across the world a century ago, killing about 60 million people.

Schools and businesses closed, and many cities required people to wear face masks to slow the spread of the devastating influenza outbreak of 1918. And back then, just like today, some people balked at the idea of the government telling them what to do.

Some protested and openly defied local orders as World War I raged in Europe, J. Alexander Navarro, assistant director at the University of Michigan’s Center for the History of Medicine, wrote this month for The Conversation.

About 2,000 members of the so-called Anti-Mask League gathered in San Francisco in 1919 “for a rally denouncing the mask ordinance and proposing ways to defeat it,” Navarro wrote.
Sound familiar?

Face masks have been a political and cultural flash point in the United States as the country struggles to contain the coronavirus pandemic, which has killed more than 140,000 people in the country since March.

In Michigan, some people carried assault rifles into the state Capitol building this spring to protest the governor’s orders, drawing international attention. Similar protests have played out in cities across the country.

During the flu pandemic, which killed 675,000 Americans in 1918 and 1919, “noncompliance and outright defiance quickly became a problem,” Navarro wrote of face-mask mandates. “Many businesses, unwilling to turn away shoppers, wouldn’t bar unmasked customers from their stores. Workers complained that masks were too uncomfortable to wear all day.”

Much like today, some people pleaded for compliance. Headlines from Chicago newspapers in 1919 declared, “Open-face sneezers to be arrested.” “Police raid saloons in war on influenza; Keep church windows open.” “’Nonessential’ crowds barred in epidemic war.”

A New York City typist wears a mask in October 1918. National Archives

In an October 1918 advertisement in the Oakland (California) Tribune, the Red Cross said, “A gauze mask is 99% proof against influenza.”

The ad continued: “Doctors wear them. Those who do not wear them get sick. The man or woman or child who will not wear a mask now is a dangerous slacker.”



A Seattle street car conductor refuses to allow passengers on board who are not wearing masks in 1918. National Archives

The 1918 pandemic started in the spring, but did not raise many alarms until that fall, killing more than 20 million people in a matter of weeks in October and November, according to the National Archives.

“The scale of the disease created mass panic. Churches and schools were closed, while local businesses and services that remained opened struggled with staff shortages. Too frightened to go out in public, people isolated themselves in their homes, leaving the streets nearly empty,” the National Archives said



Seattle police officers in December 1918 wear masks from the Red Cross. National Archives

In late November 1918, The Rocky Mountain News in Denver quoted the city’s mayor as he called for everyone to wear face masks: “The wearer is not only protecting himself, but is protecting others. It is the moral obligation of every person to wear a mask in a street car or in a store.”

Health experts have made similar morality pleas amid coronavirus: If you won’t wear a mask for yourself, do it for others, they say.
“Cloth face coverings are meant to protect other people in case the wearer is unknowingly infected but does not have symptoms,” the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said.

So how did Denver’s mandate go over 102 years ago? It “was almost totally ignored by the people; in fact, the order was cause of mirth,” according to a report from the Rocky Mountain News at the time.


Charles Duncan

843-626-0301

Charles Duncan covers what’s happening right now across North and South Carolina, from breaking news to fun or interesting stories from across the region. He holds degrees from N.C. State University and Duke and lives two blocks from the ocean in Myrtle Beach.
If your mask is so effective, yours should do just fine for you.

CNBC just reported no new COVID Deaths for Arizona. In fact, they lowered their COVID death count because of double counting.

The panic is real.
Unique_Carpenter's Avatar
I'm already tired of stating that history always repeats itself.
And, I'm starting to get tired of stating that there's no exceptions to the Darwinist theory as applied to humans.
  • Tiny
  • 07-27-2020, 12:33 PM
I'm already tired of stating that history always repeats itself.
And, I'm starting to get tired of stating that there's no exceptions to the Darwinist theory as applied to humans. Originally Posted by Unique_Carpenter
Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, China all learned from the SARS coronavirus epidemic. A good number of people died in all those countries and if they hadn't gotten it under control it could have made Covid 19 look like a walk in the park. So they were prepared for Covid 19. They did learn from history. The USA for a time did as well, as the George W. Bush administration had stocked up on personal protective equipment and had the personnel in place to respond to a pandemic.

Maybe you have to see a lot of deaths before people start taking this seriously. I don't know about Kansas City, but we're getting to that point in Texas, with 150 to 200 deaths per day from Covid 19 for each of the last four days. Compare to 600 deaths per day from all causes in Texas in a typical year. Abbott and Trump came around on masks. Unfortunately many of our fellow citizens have not, and aren't taking other common sense steps to prevent spread of the virus. Maybe if they start to see friends and family dying they will. Unfortunately by the time that happens we may be faced with lockdowns again.
rexdutchman's Avatar
Plastic bag over your head works LOL
  • oeb11
  • 07-28-2020, 07:42 AM
Let's have Trump decry the "Plastic bag over the head for 10 minutes cure for Wuhan virus."

at last 1/3 of liberals would automatically do it in protest.

Be a great thing for the peace of the Nation!!!
and raise the national IQ at least 10 points.


watching maxine Waters, Schiff, nadler, johnson, pelosi, and Schumer protest would certainly be ' entertaining'!
  • Tiny
  • 07-28-2020, 08:23 AM
Trump thinks masks and Dr. Fauci are stupid. Then he changes his mind. Now apparently he's gone back to his earlier positions, although it's hard to say since you can't find the video he retweeted:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ation-twitter/

If he'd gone with and stuck with what 2/3rds of America and 95% of epidemiologists and public health experts now know, that masking up is a good thing and Fauci is worth listening to, his poll results would be up 10 points. OK, he'd also need to shut down his twitter feed and learn to keep his mouth shut, but he'd be neck-and-neck with Biden.

And yeah Fauci has "flip flopped", but it's been for good reasons, in response to additional data. Why Trump is flip flopping right now is bizarre. Maybe he wants to lose the election.

Oeb, this is no criticism of you. You do read the science and you do take positions from time to time that are the opposite of your favored politicians.
  • oeb11
  • 07-28-2020, 08:34 AM
Tiny thanks - I never take it personally rom You - You don't write that way.

"favored politicians" - I prefer "Stands on Issues" - and the Biden Front for Radical Socialism is not my preferred course for the nation.



We started this pandemic in march - and much has been learned. Physicians and 'experts' must modify recommendations per new knowledge and expertise developed.

I would not call that a 'flu-flop' - rather properly adjusting recommendations due to new knowledge.



Those criticizing are looking at the medical issues from a political standpoint - and ideology must NOT ( of course) be criticized and is immutable to acolytes and adherents.



Not referring to You - Tiny..


Trump is far from a 'perfect' POTUS - IMHO - but far better in his stands on issues than any of the radical DPST's!
I would vote Pence over Trump!
.....

Maybe you have to see a lot of deaths before people start taking this seriously. .... Unfortunately by the time that happens we may be faced with lockdowns again. Originally Posted by Tiny
HA! Where are you? TX been serious for months. We've been wearing masks for months. And you want another total lockdown that would be catastrophic and likely not be accomplished? You're laughable.

...
We started this pandemic in march - and much has been learned. Physicians and 'experts' must modify recommendations per new knowledge and expertise developed.....
... Originally Posted by oeb11
What have we learned? Seriously. I keep hearing many conflicting things...many from Dr Fauci himself.

Two things I'm seeing consistently: Most of the people who are dying from COVID are quite old. COVID doesn't affect young people.

Here in Houston several months ago when we were "flattening the curve" Judge Hildago spent a hundred million dollars setting up two emergency hospitals that weren't used.

Again, there may not be much we can do but let the disease run it's course. I'm tired of hearing "it's out of control." It was never end control after it left the lab.
  • Tiny
  • 07-28-2020, 09:30 AM
HA! Where are you? TX been serious for months. We've been wearing masks for months. And you want another total lockdown that would be catastrophic and likely not be accomplished? You're laughable. Originally Posted by gnadfly
If lockdowns happen it's going to be because politicians order them. I don't want a total lockdown, that's an out and out lie.

You on the other hand seem to want people to do everything possible to make them happen, which is laughable considering you're also the one on this board who's complained the most about them. I don't know about Houston, but very few people where I live were wearing masks until Abbott ordered them a few weeks ago. The majority or a substantial minority still aren't wearing them except in stores where the owners force them to. There's no enforcement by the police here of Abbott's order, either for stores or individuals.

[QUOTE=gnadfly;1062140902]Again, there may not be much we can do but let the disease run it's course. I'm tired of hearing "it's out of control." It was never end control after it left the lab.[QUOTE]

It's more or less under control in most of the world. The notable exceptions are the south and the west in the USA, and parts of Brazil and India.
  • oeb11
  • 07-28-2020, 09:34 AM
G - Wuhan virus does affect young people - it does infect them. Including children

Most have none or minimal symptoms - but some are hospitalized and occasionally some do die from Wuhan virus.

It is unpredictable.

No - young people are not "immune" to the Wuhan virus.
If lockdowns happen it's going to be because politicians order them. I don't want a total lockdown, that's an out and out lie.

You on the other hand seem to want people to do everything possible to make them happen, which is laughable considering you're also the one on this board who's complained the most about them. I don't know about Houston, but very few people where I live were wearing masks until Abbott ordered them a few weeks ago. The majority or a substantial minority still aren't wearing them except in stores where the owners force them to. There's no enforcement by the police here of Abbott's order, either for stores or individuals.

Again, there may not be much we can do but let the disease run it's course. I'm tired of hearing "it's out of control." It was never end control after it left the lab. Originally Posted by gnadfly
It's more or less under control in most of the world. The notable exceptions are the south and the west in the USA, and parts of Brazil and India. Originally Posted by Tiny
Good to get you on record as antilockdown. Reading your post didn't indicate that. As soon as masks were readily available, we've been wearing them. We've been ordered to by Judge Hildago and now Abbott. There are all types of rules as to when you have to wear them. You don't have them when you're driving a car. Many people don't wear them when they are rioting or outdoors exercising.

It's more or less in control in the rest of the world is laughable.


G - Wuhan virus does affect young people - it does infect them. Including children

Most have none or minimal symptoms - but some are hospitalized and occasionally some do die from Wuhan virus.

It is unpredictable.

No - young people are not "immune" to the Wuhan virus. Originally Posted by oeb11
You're "parsing." You are trying to impart clarity to a situation by being unclear. I've seen EXTREMELY few deaths of children due to COVID. I've seen EXTREMELY few reports of hospitalization of children due to COVID. I've see many, many reports that children may have had COVID and not known it. I've seen many reports that children tested positive for the COVID antibody and the parents were surprised. I've seen and talked to people who think their child had COVID and simply stayed at home like they do with any other mild virus.

I stand by my statement that COVID doesn't affect young people.
Have some young people been sick. Sure. Young people get sick.
Here in Houston kids under 10 don't have to wear masks. I never said they were "immune."
rexdutchman's Avatar
And no proof masks stop this virus Gee lock down and masks have not slowed transmission rates soooo
People wearing clothes as masks don't work for anything , and now there going back looking at old death certs trying to find more. Remember this is just to push mail in voting.
  • oeb11
  • 07-29-2020, 09:01 AM
Good to get you on record as antilockdown. Reading your post didn't indicate that. As soon as masks were readily available, we've been wearing them. We've been ordered to by Judge Hildago and now Abbott. There are all types of rules as to when you have to wear them. You don't have them when you're driving a car. Many people don't wear them when they are rioting or outdoors exercising.

It's more or less in control in the rest of the world is laughable.




You're "parsing." You are trying to impart clarity to a situation by being unclear. I've seen EXTREMELY few deaths of children due to COVID. I've seen EXTREMELY few reports of hospitalization of children due to COVID. I've see many, many reports that children may have had COVID and not known it. I've seen many reports that children tested positive for the COVID antibody and the parents were surprised. I've seen and talked to people who think their child had COVID and simply stayed at home like they do with any other mild virus.

I stand by my statement that COVID doesn't affect young people.
Have some young people been sick. Sure. Young people get sick.
Here in Houston kids under 10 don't have to wear masks. I never said they were "immune." Originally Posted by gnadfly

you are entitled to your opinion.

Young people do become infected by wuhan virus - the vast majority do not show symptoms - but may be infectious to other people.

Just as the common viral coronavirus URI's - so ubiquitous in day cares and elementary school/kindergartens.
Again, I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge regarding masks, and again, not going to be baited into political arguments, so please review this thread: https://eccie.net/showthread.php?t=2723812
and this article: https://www.lung.org/blog/covid-masks before you choose to reply, so at least you have read some basic principles regarding their use.

This is a hooker board, so let me equate it to condom use. A condom fairly effectively protects transmission for disease from EITHER party to the others (yes, nothing is 100% in life, but the key word is effective). But, if you have an STD and bareback a provider, you have potentially set up a chain of infection not only to the provider, but to her future clients, or perhaps set yourself up to re-infection should you bb her again after you've been cured. The difference is that ordinary masks ( not N95 masks, which you can distinguish if you read the reference threads) do not EFFECTIVELY protect BOTH parties from being infected. They only protect the infected from transmitting to others,so to finish the analogy, the only safe way to bareback a provider is if you are the ONLY one that barebacks her. I think you can be as equally sure that your bb provider only grants that privilege to you, as you can be that the guy next to you without a mask is not Covid infectious. Yes, I've bb'd before, but its risk/benefit and been thoroughly discussed, but there are two main differences: I've never done that knowing I was infectious (as opposed to Covid parties) and it was consensual where both parties know the risk. Again, not political, just educational and mild preaching about everyone's responsibility to each other.