- Likinikki
- 01-06-2011, 10:35 PM
Was sitting here tonight watching the Anderson Cooper 360 report on the Immigration Debate. What are your thoughts on this?
- Theory
- 01-07-2011, 05:09 PM
I'll take the bait
*****DISCLAIMER-I DO NOT KNOW ALL THE DETAILS OF THIS ISSUE SO I AM SPEAKING FROM WHAT I KNOW******
As a hispanic man, this does not offend me what-so-ever, and quite honestly I think it is a potential solution to some of our over spending issues. I am unsure on the application, but from some of the criticisms it sounds like people think that they would try and make this retroactive. I think that is a bad idea. I would say it should be applied from the point it gets approved moving forward. Sure it might be unfair, but who says life is fair? Leaders will ALWAYS be faced with tough decisions to make, BUT, they have to be made. With as diverse a society that USA has, no decision is going to please everybody. I say lets take care of the people who are currently in our country than be more concerned with "future" citizens (or non citizens in this case).
*****DISCLAIMER-I DO NOT KNOW ALL THE DETAILS OF THIS ISSUE SO I AM SPEAKING FROM WHAT I KNOW******
As a hispanic man, this does not offend me what-so-ever, and quite honestly I think it is a potential solution to some of our over spending issues. I am unsure on the application, but from some of the criticisms it sounds like people think that they would try and make this retroactive. I think that is a bad idea. I would say it should be applied from the point it gets approved moving forward. Sure it might be unfair, but who says life is fair? Leaders will ALWAYS be faced with tough decisions to make, BUT, they have to be made. With as diverse a society that USA has, no decision is going to please everybody. I say lets take care of the people who are currently in our country than be more concerned with "future" citizens (or non citizens in this case).
- VictoriaLyn
- 01-07-2011, 05:26 PM
About the 14th Amendment
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside."
The United States did not limit immigration in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Thus there were, by definition, no illegal immigrants and the issue of citizenship for children of those here in violation of the law was nonexistent.
In 1866, Senator Jacob Howard clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by stating:
"Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country."
This understanding was reaffirmed by Senator Edward Cowan, who stated:
"[A foreigner in the United States] has a right to the protection of the laws; but he is not a citizen in the ordinary acceptance of the word..."
The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was intended to exclude American-born persons from automatic citizenship whose allegiance to the United States was not complete. With illegal aliens who are unlawfully in the United States, their native country has a claim of allegiance on the child. Thus, the completeness of their allegiance to the United States is impaired, which therefore precludes automatic citizenship.
The correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment is that an illegal alien mother is subject to the jurisdiction of her native country, as is her baby.
The Court essentially stated that the status of the parents determines the citizenship of the child. To qualify children for birthright citizenship, based on the 14th Amendment, parents must owe "direct and immediate allegiance" to the U.S. and be "completely subject" to its jurisdiction. In other words, they must be United States citizens.
Congress subsequently passed a special act to grant full citizenship to American Indians, who were not citizens even through they were born within the borders of the United States.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside."
The United States did not limit immigration in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Thus there were, by definition, no illegal immigrants and the issue of citizenship for children of those here in violation of the law was nonexistent.
In 1866, Senator Jacob Howard clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by stating:
"Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country."
This understanding was reaffirmed by Senator Edward Cowan, who stated:
"[A foreigner in the United States] has a right to the protection of the laws; but he is not a citizen in the ordinary acceptance of the word..."
The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was intended to exclude American-born persons from automatic citizenship whose allegiance to the United States was not complete. With illegal aliens who are unlawfully in the United States, their native country has a claim of allegiance on the child. Thus, the completeness of their allegiance to the United States is impaired, which therefore precludes automatic citizenship.
The correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment is that an illegal alien mother is subject to the jurisdiction of her native country, as is her baby.
The Court essentially stated that the status of the parents determines the citizenship of the child. To qualify children for birthright citizenship, based on the 14th Amendment, parents must owe "direct and immediate allegiance" to the U.S. and be "completely subject" to its jurisdiction. In other words, they must be United States citizens.
Congress subsequently passed a special act to grant full citizenship to American Indians, who were not citizens even through they were born within the borders of the United States.
- Likinikki
- 01-07-2011, 05:34 PM
Congress subsequently passed a special act to grant full citizenship to American Indians, who were not citizens even through they were born within the borders of the United States.Nice...being it was their land to begin with
- VictoriaLyn
- 01-07-2011, 05:37 PM
- Guest080312-1
- 01-07-2011, 08:15 PM
Ladies, to put things in perspective -- the 14th was one of 3 amendments (the others being the 13th, abolishing slavery; and 15th, prohibiting governments (state and local) from denying citizens their right to vote) that Congress passed to address the issues of post-Civil War America, primarily the status of slaves. The intent of the "born or naturalized" clause of the 14th was to ensure that newly freed slaves had the status of United States citizens -- entitled to all the rights and protections thereof. (And that's probably why Congress felt the need to pass a special and separate act pertaining to American Indians, whose status was not the intent of the 14th.)
Of course, we know that the former Confederate states still managed to deny these new citizens their rights and protections. But that's a lengthy topic, Nikki, that I'd be more than glad to discuss with you over a couple of brandies.
Of course, we know that the former Confederate states still managed to deny these new citizens their rights and protections. But that's a lengthy topic, Nikki, that I'd be more than glad to discuss with you over a couple of brandies.
- oden
- 01-07-2011, 10:05 PM
Actually, I'd like to discuss most anything with Nikkie.
- Guest080312-1
- 01-08-2011, 04:28 AM
- yogi692
- 01-08-2011, 12:05 PM
it may sound ignorant but what part of "illegal" do people not understand. There are legal ways of getting into the country. How long did Iran hold the three Americans because it said that they were hiking in their country? did anyone get this bent out of shape over that one? these people are well into our country, and costing us ALOT of money...
- Likinikki
- 01-08-2011, 01:03 PM
Yogi...that's why I posted this thread. Apparently, there are many people who feel differently, so I was just curious to see how many here feel the children of these immigrants *do* have the right of citizenship...and why.
GaryV...yes thank you for the input. The 14th Amendment was considered the reconstruction Amendments with 3 primary clauses...Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection, as well as a number of clauses that dealt with the Confederacy.
I may have to take you up on that convo, but don't get upset if your bottle's gone by the end of the discussion! (lol)
GaryV...yes thank you for the input. The 14th Amendment was considered the reconstruction Amendments with 3 primary clauses...Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection, as well as a number of clauses that dealt with the Confederacy.
I may have to take you up on that convo, but don't get upset if your bottle's gone by the end of the discussion! (lol)
- Rodram
- 01-08-2011, 01:41 PM
Yogi, please don't throw stones as you too engage in illegal activity as a patron of this industry and just what would "Iran" do with you I wonder? This great nation was founded by immigrants and you seem to also be dismissive of the economic impact that undocumented immigrants have on this country. Immigrants are currently responsible for much of the food products you consume and much of the infrastructure you use. This should be blatantly apparent to you as I assume you are a Texan no? New Orleans was rebuilt after Katrina by those immigrants you are so willing to disparage and what would've been the impact economically if all the sudden we didn't have that cheap day labor?
From the CBO (nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office) and the IRS:The IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[3] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.[3] Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[15]
Just a little more opinion for you:Professor of Law Francine Lipman [4] writes that the belief that illegal migrants are exploiting the US economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniably false". Lipman asserts that "undocumented immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."[5]
From the CBO (nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office) and the IRS:The IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[3] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.[3] Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[15]
Just a little more opinion for you:Professor of Law Francine Lipman [4] writes that the belief that illegal migrants are exploiting the US economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniably false". Lipman asserts that "undocumented immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."[5]
- macdeft
- 01-08-2011, 02:26 PM
There are people from all over the globe desperate to move to the USA, they file their 20 pounds of paperwork, wait years and years for nothing--they try gaining employment with a USA company that has employment abroad then try marrying a USA citizen. Most of these people never ever even have a shot at getting here while people living directly across USA borders jump a fence or dig a tunnel and cut in line in front of these people trying to get here the legal way. It creates a lack of diversity in our culture. It builds resentments amongst people who watch this and consider it unfair.
- BigBudha
- 01-08-2011, 03:30 PM
So, are we only talking about illegal immigrants from the county (singular) to the south of us or are we talking about all illegal immigrants? Regardless of nationality? I mean, illegal is illegal - right? 
Kick 'em all out!
Kick 'em all out!
- yogi692
- 01-08-2011, 05:21 PM
Rodram..you seem educated enought to go look for the data, very impressive, but to liken this dicussion to something like being a member of this bored is completely stupid. I will use small words so you can understand. to use the arguement that our country was founded on immigrants is valid, but they came here legally waited in line to get citizenship. As far as cheap labor, the government sets the minimun wage. Unions in this country have taken the wage scale way out of balance. I have worked both uniion and non union so don't go thinking I do not know what I am talking about there. Yes we all do things that are illegal, I am sure you go over the speed limit, we can argue this all day. The thread is about immagration. I am all for immigration as long as it is done legally.
- Likinikki
- 01-08-2011, 06:26 PM
Actually, this thread is on what you think about illegal immigrant children being given citizenship if they are born in the US. BT, yes ALL illegal aliens (ETs included...lol)