I really like Nina Sastri's post on 'Powerful Women'.
It provokes me to mention something I mention often and am required often to work on in my other/main life:
I am constantly teaching American women to get looked after/paid for by their men.
I tell them are they INSANE to pay half of dates, and the very real fact is that people pay for what is emotionally important to them. So if a guy is not paying for you, in whatever world you're in, he thinks very lowly of you.
How could he not?
A much older girlfriend tried to explain the b-----it she had been dealing with in her newish relationship to me recently, and how my words to her had pulled her through. She insisted he pay all bills for an upcoming trip. Duh.
She tried to explain to me the terrible debt American 'feminists' are paying now - "We burned our bras...".
I cut in in - "We did that in Britain too. Then we took their wallets.".
Any gentleman worth his salt knows he has to pay for his date. That's what I'm teaching American women that I meet - the more a man spends on you, the more he respects you.
Once they hear my logic, women always say "Well, yes!". Young or old.
It's a matter of respect.
Not that all women don't know that of course... I'm just repeating ancient sense.
Leah Ireland
- Leah Ireland
- 04-02-2011, 01:20 PM
- WTF
- 04-02-2011, 01:36 PM
A powerful woman does not need a man to buy them a fucking thing.
- charlestudor2005
- 04-02-2011, 02:46 PM
I disagree. It is not a matter of respect.
In the US, as PJ pointed out in another thread, women have pierced the glass ceiling...NO! They shattered it.
Given the unequal earning power and influence (pillowtalk), I think women should pay their own freight.
Not doing so is not living up to responsibility and screwing the guy in more ways than one.
This thread makes me think that women want it all: money, position, influence, and their way paid w/o giving up shit. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
In Leah's world, not only would I pay for the "date," but also the travel, the condoms, the lube, the utilities, any meals before and after, whether we had them together or not, ad infintum.
Yeah, you took off your bras in Britain, then you took their wallets. All I can say is the men in Britain need to grow a pair and hold on to their wallets. After all, it is their hard earned money, not yours.
In the US, as PJ pointed out in another thread, women have pierced the glass ceiling...NO! They shattered it.
Given the unequal earning power and influence (pillowtalk), I think women should pay their own freight.
Not doing so is not living up to responsibility and screwing the guy in more ways than one.
This thread makes me think that women want it all: money, position, influence, and their way paid w/o giving up shit. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
In Leah's world, not only would I pay for the "date," but also the travel, the condoms, the lube, the utilities, any meals before and after, whether we had them together or not, ad infintum.
Yeah, you took off your bras in Britain, then you took their wallets. All I can say is the men in Britain need to grow a pair and hold on to their wallets. After all, it is their hard earned money, not yours.
- NinaBrooke
- 04-02-2011, 03:05 PM
I think it depends in what kind of relationships the women are with the men. I was once a secret lover of a married man, he used to pay for all my expenses, when we met, and at times supported me financially. Sure, because he did not give me a legitimate relationship so of course its more an escort client relationship.
I also had a man take care of me for 7 years who required that i give up my escort life for him, so he reimbursed me for what i gave up for him. It was a legitimate and polyamorous relationship.
What i can?t understand is women letting men treat them not equal or not legitimate, AND catering to them for free.
Here i have to say i agree with Leah in a great deal.
I am now in two relationships where no one of my men pays for me in any way. We have independent finances and i pay my share as well. But a) i am free to do what i want, and b) i am a legitimate partner and not some doormat :-). Plus, they are both men that earn about the same money i do. So we are equal income. Its different to be with same aged guys then with older ones who live a different lifestyle.
I only require men to pay me or for me, when they need me to be secret or can`t cater to legitimate aspects or need to treat me like a "second class citizen".
Also an interesting factor is the age gap: If a man i date or am with has a ton of more money than i used to have and is way older than i used to be, do i have to provide my share of dining out in a luxury restaurant? I don`t think so. Do i need to abuse him therefor financially? No, but there are other ways of being equal. Sometimes a nice home cooked dinner is also a way to "pay back". I used to be 18 years old and date a 47 year old man for 7 years so the age gap was wide and of course he paid for everything. I was feeling guilty but he took that feeling away from me. In hindsight, it was ok the way it was. It did not harm him and it was really beneficial for me.
Leah, i`d love to hear more from you on here. I have checked out your blog a while ago, stumbled on it via wordpress!
I also had a man take care of me for 7 years who required that i give up my escort life for him, so he reimbursed me for what i gave up for him. It was a legitimate and polyamorous relationship.
What i can?t understand is women letting men treat them not equal or not legitimate, AND catering to them for free.
Here i have to say i agree with Leah in a great deal.
I am now in two relationships where no one of my men pays for me in any way. We have independent finances and i pay my share as well. But a) i am free to do what i want, and b) i am a legitimate partner and not some doormat :-). Plus, they are both men that earn about the same money i do. So we are equal income. Its different to be with same aged guys then with older ones who live a different lifestyle.
I only require men to pay me or for me, when they need me to be secret or can`t cater to legitimate aspects or need to treat me like a "second class citizen".
Also an interesting factor is the age gap: If a man i date or am with has a ton of more money than i used to have and is way older than i used to be, do i have to provide my share of dining out in a luxury restaurant? I don`t think so. Do i need to abuse him therefor financially? No, but there are other ways of being equal. Sometimes a nice home cooked dinner is also a way to "pay back". I used to be 18 years old and date a 47 year old man for 7 years so the age gap was wide and of course he paid for everything. I was feeling guilty but he took that feeling away from me. In hindsight, it was ok the way it was. It did not harm him and it was really beneficial for me.
Leah, i`d love to hear more from you on here. I have checked out your blog a while ago, stumbled on it via wordpress!
- Chevalier
- 04-03-2011, 06:48 AM
In civilian relationships (including getting together for lunch with a retired escort friend), I have generally paid for everything. I tend, however, to think of that as due to social conventions rather than necessary to show respect. The social conventions are in some ways a holdover from a past age when women were subservient and "possessions" rather than equals.
The problem I have with the respect paradigm is that it suggests that in all other aspects of the relationship there is a huge imbalance -- with what the lady offers being of much greater value than what the gentleman offers. That would include not only the sexual component but also the pleasure of the other's company. (The alternative explanation would appear to be -- if paying = respect, and paying more = more respect -- that the lady does not, at all, respect the gentleman.)
That huge imbalance may indeed reflect reality in some instances if not more widely. Perhaps I did enjoy sex much more than my partner. Perhaps I did enjoy her company much more than she did mine. But that's a very depressing thought and seems (to me) an unhealthy relationship.
A significant gap between our financial resources and/or social conventions might keep me from ever suggesting she pitch in. (Almost bankrupted myself by that attitude in my younger, poorer days.). But if I were single and dating someone who gave the impression she needed me to pay more and more and more to demonstrate respect for me, I suspect that to maintain a scrap of self-respect I would have to end the relationship.
I have no illusions that this is an original thought. I'm sure my perspective is something y'all have heard before and for which you have a ready rejoinder.
Or perhaps Leah didn't express the full nuance of her perspective and it's closer to Nina's.
The problem I have with the respect paradigm is that it suggests that in all other aspects of the relationship there is a huge imbalance -- with what the lady offers being of much greater value than what the gentleman offers. That would include not only the sexual component but also the pleasure of the other's company. (The alternative explanation would appear to be -- if paying = respect, and paying more = more respect -- that the lady does not, at all, respect the gentleman.)
That huge imbalance may indeed reflect reality in some instances if not more widely. Perhaps I did enjoy sex much more than my partner. Perhaps I did enjoy her company much more than she did mine. But that's a very depressing thought and seems (to me) an unhealthy relationship.
A significant gap between our financial resources and/or social conventions might keep me from ever suggesting she pitch in. (Almost bankrupted myself by that attitude in my younger, poorer days.). But if I were single and dating someone who gave the impression she needed me to pay more and more and more to demonstrate respect for me, I suspect that to maintain a scrap of self-respect I would have to end the relationship.
I have no illusions that this is an original thought. I'm sure my perspective is something y'all have heard before and for which you have a ready rejoinder.
Or perhaps Leah didn't express the full nuance of her perspective and it's closer to Nina's.
- NinaBrooke
- 04-03-2011, 07:59 AM
I remember being in NYC out with my polyamorous friends from this city and i invited them all for dinner. All of them have been male. One of them told me then that this is a really strange thing for a woman to do in the USA. Is that really so? That men are not getting invited like that? In Europe that happens that when people go out, some time this person invites , sometimes the other one. And i just wanted to invite my american poly friends for dinner, that is all . (I mean i was staying at their places for free, they invited me to a lot of parties , so that was just my way of returning the favour).
- Naomi4u
- 04-03-2011, 08:05 AM
While I agree with everything you had to say, Ms. Ireland.
Any gentleman worth his salt knows he has to pay for his date. That's what I'm teaching American women that I meet - the more a man spends on you, the more he respects you.
Leah Ireland Originally Posted by Leah Ireland
I don't think "respect" has anything to do with it.
I was also brought up in a culture where the man pays for everything.
Where I'm from, there's not such thing as a woman paying half for a date.
It's shameful and comical. If a man is going to take me out.. he's paying for everything.
If not, I won't bother. If the economy is so bad then don't ask me out. Simple.
- Leah Ireland
- 04-03-2011, 09:56 AM
- Leah Ireland
- 04-03-2011, 10:04 AM
Chevalier - "I have no illusions that this is an original thought. I'm sure my perspective is something y'all have heard before and for which you have a ready rejoinder. Or perhaps Leah didn't express the full nuance of her perspective and it's closer to Nina's. "
No, I really don't believe in paying anything for a man, particularly a lover.
It's not that I haven't, but if I do I really don't respect the guy for letting me do that. Maybe I've even paid for a dinner because he's going through a hard time/is permanently impoverished, but there's no way I could consider being a lover with such a guy.
It's not that a man has to give more and more financially in a relationship either, particularly, but if a man is happy he is naturally generous more and more. It's just the way it goes in my experience - I ask for nothing, I get given.
Men are nurturers too and financial nurturing is one of the things that men do for women they esteem.
Sure lots of guys will get women to pay for dates or whatever, but I feel that just shows the woman's lack of self-esteem and the man's low opinion of her.
It's not manly.
Or perhaps Leah didn't express the full nuance of her perspective and it's closer to Nina's. "No, I really don't believe in paying anything for a man, particularly a lover.
It's not that I haven't, but if I do I really don't respect the guy for letting me do that. Maybe I've even paid for a dinner because he's going through a hard time/is permanently impoverished, but there's no way I could consider being a lover with such a guy.
It's not that a man has to give more and more financially in a relationship either, particularly, but if a man is happy he is naturally generous more and more. It's just the way it goes in my experience - I ask for nothing, I get given.
Men are nurturers too and financial nurturing is one of the things that men do for women they esteem.
Sure lots of guys will get women to pay for dates or whatever, but I feel that just shows the woman's lack of self-esteem and the man's low opinion of her.
It's not manly.
- Leah Ireland
- 04-03-2011, 10:09 AM
Nina Sastri -
"Leah, i`d love to hear more from you on here. I have checked out your blog a while ago, stumbled on it via wordpress!"
Thank you Nina, I'm terminally unpopular on this site so I don't bother!
"Leah, i`d love to hear more from you on here. I have checked out your blog a while ago, stumbled on it via wordpress!"
Thank you Nina, I'm terminally unpopular on this site so I don't bother!
- pjorourke
- 04-03-2011, 10:34 AM
In the US, as PJ pointed out in another thread, women have pierced the glass ceiling...NO! They shattered it.As was pointed out to me on that thread, economic freedom for women is largely associated with higher education and socioeconomic levels. Perhaps this is also the case with women being comfortable sharing expenses.
Given the unequal earning power and influence (pillowtalk), I think women should pay their own freight. Originally Posted by charlestudor2005
- pjorourke
- 04-03-2011, 10:35 AM
- WTF
- 04-03-2011, 10:40 AM
What i can?t understand is women letting men treat them not equal or not legitimate, AND catering to them for free.Agreed!
Here i have to say i agree with Leah in a great deal.
! Originally Posted by ninasastri
.
I was also brought up in a culture where the man pays for everything.
Where I'm from, there's not such thing as a woman paying half for a date.
It's shameful and comical. If a man is going to take me out.. he's paying for everything.
If not, I won't bother. If the economy is so bad then don't ask me out. Simple. Originally Posted by Naomi4u
What women should strive for is equality, not dependence. If you grew up in a country where men dominated resources then yes, I suspect that men would pay for your time. You speak of that tradition as if it is a good thing. It only means women are dependent on men in a society such as that.
There are not so many powerful women financially, and it's still a nurturing thing for a man to do even if a woman is a multi-millionairess. Originally Posted by Leah Ireland
What I find nurturing is when another human being helps another human being regardless of sex.
Wouldn't it be great if we all helped each other out depending on circumstances instead of gender and shed stupid stereotypical traditions that were from another age?
Nina Sastri -I love your insight and frankness!
"Leah, i`d love to hear more from you on here. I have checked out your blog a while ago, stumbled on it via wordpress!"
Thank you Nina, I'm terminally unpopular on this site so I don't bother! Originally Posted by Leah Ireland
Refreshing is wtf it is.
- Naomi4u
- 04-03-2011, 10:54 AM
What women should strive for is equality, not dependence. If you grew up in a country where men dominated resources then yes, I suspect that men would pay for your time. You speak of that tradition as if it is a good thing. It only means women are dependent on men in a society such as that.Honey, I make damn good money doing what I do outside of the hobby world alone. I don't have a man taking care of me. I never said male dominance was a good thing (well in the bedroom it is but that's another thread). What I am saying is that: If a man decides to ask me out he better be ready to foot the bill. Was that so hard to understand my dear friend?
Originally Posted by WTF
Now If I say "WTF, Let's go to the strip club!", I won't mind footing the bill. All my guy friends know I don't mind paying ever but on an actual date? NO!
- NinaBrooke
- 04-03-2011, 11:18 AM