You see it here in every thread. Majority of people that post here have a tendency to think along party lines and appear to want to see their party “win” something rather than what’s best for the country!
Why do you think political tribalism is the norm anymore? Why can’t we think for ourselves and not along party lines? Aren’t both parties F-iing up and also do some good?
- Charley3
- 07-05-2023, 10:01 PM
- HDGristle
- 07-06-2023, 07:45 AM
This is what happens when you have the convos at the extremes. You entrench instead of find common ground in the middle as the more partisan folks go to work on purging the voices of moderates.
The question is whether the varying shades of moderates will stand up and take back control.
The question is whether the varying shades of moderates will stand up and take back control.
- Charley3
- 07-06-2023, 09:07 AM
- Smarty1
- 07-06-2023, 09:29 AM
Mostly it’s the system itself IMO. There are a lot of electoral reforms that could be tried to mitigate the two party dominance. Systems like rank choice voting, proportional representation and the like could help alleviate the dominance of the two party system. The trouble is that any change is perceived by one side as favorable to them, and hence by the other as unfavorable. Many changes would require supermajority support (such as a change to how members of the House are elected, which would require an amendment), so even changes that would be beneficial will fail on partisan grounds.
Then there is the whole overreach issue - presented with a choice between an extremist right wing candidate and an extremist left wing one, most people will hold their nose and vote for a lesser of two evils choice. Both parties then interpret their narrow victories as broad sweeping mandates for the entirety of their side’s agenda. You can see an example of this in the wailing and gnashing of teeth going on with the left over the recent affirmative action decision. The left assumes that, based on Biden’s win in 2020 and the relatively good 2022 results that the country overwhelmingly favors the entire left wing agenda. Polling though shows that most people actually agree that college admissions should not include race as a factor.
Both parties need to stop using close election victories as an excuse for sweeping changes to our laws and society. The electorate is divided; governance should reflect this. Only with broad consensus should major changes occur. If the parties are not willing to reign in their behavior, then we truly need more checks on their ability to make such changes without consensus. The filibuster in the Senate was a good example of such a check, but sadly it has been undermined by both parties with reconciliation and its elimination for certain appointments. Perhaps an amendment to require 60 votes to pass ANY bill in the Senate would work. Of course the side controlling the Senate would oppose it and there would be no hope.
Then there is the whole overreach issue - presented with a choice between an extremist right wing candidate and an extremist left wing one, most people will hold their nose and vote for a lesser of two evils choice. Both parties then interpret their narrow victories as broad sweeping mandates for the entirety of their side’s agenda. You can see an example of this in the wailing and gnashing of teeth going on with the left over the recent affirmative action decision. The left assumes that, based on Biden’s win in 2020 and the relatively good 2022 results that the country overwhelmingly favors the entire left wing agenda. Polling though shows that most people actually agree that college admissions should not include race as a factor.
Both parties need to stop using close election victories as an excuse for sweeping changes to our laws and society. The electorate is divided; governance should reflect this. Only with broad consensus should major changes occur. If the parties are not willing to reign in their behavior, then we truly need more checks on their ability to make such changes without consensus. The filibuster in the Senate was a good example of such a check, but sadly it has been undermined by both parties with reconciliation and its elimination for certain appointments. Perhaps an amendment to require 60 votes to pass ANY bill in the Senate would work. Of course the side controlling the Senate would oppose it and there would be no hope.
- HDGristle
- 07-06-2023, 11:37 AM
It's like in the House GOP where the agenda is being dominated by the 10% of extremists instead of the more moderate majority. We need deal closers who can achieve things with mixed control.
Not obstructionist zealots pumping out bills going nowhere or to force show votes.
Dumb when Dems do it. Dumb when Repubs do it.
Not obstructionist zealots pumping out bills going nowhere or to force show votes.
Dumb when Dems do it. Dumb when Repubs do it.
- Smarty1
- 07-06-2023, 01:02 PM
Trouble is it’s a tit-for-tat situation. One side wins office and basically says “Screw it; the other side didn’t try to compromise while they were in power. Why should we?”, and all you get is an escalation in the extremism, rather than the opposite. The fact that something like 85% or so of seats in the House are essentially safe seats for one side or the other certainly makes matters worse. Voters aren’t going to get rid of extremist representatives regardless of what they do, so what motivation do they have to change anything.
Couple that with a media that intentionally fans the flames by always reporting on anything that actually happens as a “win” for one side and a loss for the other and things won’t ever change. The recent debt ceiling bill was a good example of this. Instead of portraying it as a compromise measure that averted a potential disaster, almost all media coverage was about which side won the deal. Maybe neither side did; maybe both did. Neither side got everything they wanted from it, but both sides benefitted from not allowing the government to go into default. Somehow compromise has gone away and any sacrifice of anything a party desires is now “losing”.
Couple that with a media that intentionally fans the flames by always reporting on anything that actually happens as a “win” for one side and a loss for the other and things won’t ever change. The recent debt ceiling bill was a good example of this. Instead of portraying it as a compromise measure that averted a potential disaster, almost all media coverage was about which side won the deal. Maybe neither side did; maybe both did. Neither side got everything they wanted from it, but both sides benefitted from not allowing the government to go into default. Somehow compromise has gone away and any sacrifice of anything a party desires is now “losing”.
- Charley3
- 07-06-2023, 02:25 PM
Excellent posts gentlemen!
I’d include student loan forgiveness in Smarty’s point. Most people thought it was ridiculous, yet it was also presented as a win for GOP, loss for Dems.
It’s all about “winning” and keeping your job as a politician or a media employee. A lot of people are fooled by both.
I use to trust “news”. Had a little trust in politicians. Now there’s no trust with either.
I’d include student loan forgiveness in Smarty’s point. Most people thought it was ridiculous, yet it was also presented as a win for GOP, loss for Dems.
It’s all about “winning” and keeping your job as a politician or a media employee. A lot of people are fooled by both.
I use to trust “news”. Had a little trust in politicians. Now there’s no trust with either.
- Cody69
- 07-06-2023, 05:10 PM
And one of the all time dumbest bills is if you have excellent credit you pay more in interest than someone who don't pay there bills. This country is crazy in the last 20 years.
As much as I didn't like Ted Kennedy they use to get things done. John Heinz, Arlen Specter, John McCain all good people.
Now you got a bunch of wack Jobs. Nutty People, both sides.
We haven't had anyone on either side run for president since Obama. If we have the same two run in 24 I am not wasting my time in voting. They are both a BPOS.
As much as I didn't like Ted Kennedy they use to get things done. John Heinz, Arlen Specter, John McCain all good people.
Now you got a bunch of wack Jobs. Nutty People, both sides.
We haven't had anyone on either side run for president since Obama. If we have the same two run in 24 I am not wasting my time in voting. They are both a BPOS.
- Chase7
- 07-06-2023, 07:12 PM
And one of the all time dumbest bills is if you have excellent credit you pay more in interest than someone who don't pay there bills. This country is crazy in the last 20 years.Obama is the architect of the discord we deal with now in this country.
As much as I didn't like Ted Kennedy they use to get things done. John Heinz, Arlen Specter, John McCain all good people.
Now you got a bunch of wack Jobs. Nutty People, both sides.
We haven't had anyone on either side run for president since Obama. If we have the same two run in 24 I am not wasting my time in voting. They are both a BPOS. Originally Posted by Cody69
Reagan, Clinton and yes Trump tried to do what was best for everyone. The Democrats and the Media will not except anything other than their wants.
I’m white, now the democrat leaders and media consider me a racist, solely because I’m white.
Again, Obama is the architect of this.
By me posting this I’ll labeled something.
- tommy156
- 07-07-2023, 01:12 AM
Obama is the architect of the discord we deal with now in this country.Lol. How is Obama "the architect of this"?
Reagan, Clinton and yes Trump tried to do what was best for everyone. The Democrats and the Media will not except anything other than their wants.
I’m white, now the democrat leaders and media consider me a racist, solely because I’m white.
Again, Obama is the architect of this.
By me posting this I’ll labeled something. Originally Posted by Chase7
Or maybe, just maybe, it was the white conservative response to our first AA POTUS that caused this? Otherwise, how exactly did Obama create this division (by winning the popular vote by huge margins both times)?
Seriously, how did mean ol' Obama hurt you in such a personal way? (please keep in mind, the American voters overwhelmingly welcomed him to both terms - winning both popular and electoral college votes).
- Chase7
- 07-07-2023, 05:56 AM
Read your response, you contradicted yourself.
Obama was elected twice by what I am called now, so-called racist white people, how can that be!
One of his early statements is “I will fundamentally change America one day at a time”.
Since he’s been in office we all deal with discord of America being racist. Yes America being racist, after it elected him “twice.
That’s a contradiction.
Again all the hate and discord started after Obama was elected. The democrats and the media blame others for what they have caused, it’s a ploy for control and power.
Americans are also not against LGBTQIA. Another false pretense being put out by democrats and the media.
Liberals are now using inclusion along with racism for purely political use. They don’t care about either only for what can be used for power and control.
Obama was elected twice by what I am called now, so-called racist white people, how can that be!
One of his early statements is “I will fundamentally change America one day at a time”.
Since he’s been in office we all deal with discord of America being racist. Yes America being racist, after it elected him “twice.
That’s a contradiction.
Again all the hate and discord started after Obama was elected. The democrats and the media blame others for what they have caused, it’s a ploy for control and power.
Americans are also not against LGBTQIA. Another false pretense being put out by democrats and the media.
Liberals are now using inclusion along with racism for purely political use. They don’t care about either only for what can be used for power and control.
- jmichael
- 07-07-2023, 09:55 AM
Read your response, you contradicted yourself.to quote a poster I respect, "If you say so."
Obama was elected twice by what I am called now, so-called racist white people, how can that be!
One of his early statements is “I will fundamentally change America one day at a time”.
Since he’s been in office we all deal with discord of America being racist. Yes America being racist, after it elected him “twice.
That’s a contradiction.
Again all the hate and discord started after Obama was elected. The democrats and the media blame others for what they have caused, it’s a ploy for control and power.
Americans are also not against LGBTQIA. Another false pretense being put out by democrats and the media.
Liberals are now using inclusion along with racism for purely political use. They don’t care about either only for what can be used for power and control. Originally Posted by Chase7
- Jacuzzme
- 07-07-2023, 01:01 PM
I don’t want to find common ground with leftism. What does that even look like, a promise to only cut off half the teenagers dicks/tits? WW3 will only kill a million Americans, not everyone? I can send in 75% of my income instead of 100%?
When someone’s ideas are bad, they’re bad. Making them a little less bad is no solution, they need thrown on the ash heap of history.
When someone’s ideas are bad, they’re bad. Making them a little less bad is no solution, they need thrown on the ash heap of history.
- Charley3
- 07-07-2023, 09:33 PM
I don’t want to find common ground with leftism. What does that even look like, a promise to only cut off half the teenagers dicks/tits? WW3 will only kill a million Americans, not everyone? I can send in 75% of my income instead of 100%?I think you might watch too much news. I don’t know or know anyone that knows a teenager that has had their dick cut off. Or half a dick. Lol
When someone’s ideas are bad, they’re bad. Making them a little less bad is no solution, they need thrown on the ash heap of history. Originally Posted by Jacuzzme
I think Jacuzzme’s post is a perfect example of what media can do to people. Makes the fringes of society seem like they’re everywhere.
- mrmxmr
- 07-10-2023, 01:31 PM
im sorry gang but i dont agree with a lot of what i read here . one thing i ve seen for the 40 years of being engrossed in the politics of our country is that the left likes to equivalize their positions to achieve a perspective that projects thoughts like ;
both parties are extreme
both parties are far right and far left where are the moderates
they both do it
both are evil and only care about getting elected
kind of like a push in blackjack, no one wins , no ones loses both are the same, the policies cancel out why even vote ?
i might have agreed 10 years ago when i was a democrat of over 30 years.
but now no way
looking at the conservative side
is it extreme to want fair elections
is it extreme to want government agencies to follow the law and treat all persons fairly
is it extreme to mentor your own children in the nature of sex at an age they feel is appropriate .
is it extreme to not want to let a baby die in abotched abortion or live birth
is it extreme to believe in religious liberty
is it extreme to have SCOTUs judges who believe in the constitution
is it extreme to believe in responsible government spending
is it extreme to believe in energy independence and an economy that works for everyone keeping inflation low , tax cuts for all, and an abundant life
is it extreme to believe in safe borders that keep out drugs and dealers
is it extreme to believe in the law that prosecutes those who break it
is it extreme to believe in a safe world with no wars
is it extreme to not tolerate corrupt politicians who sell our country for their on enrichment and work to root them out
is it extreme to want a fair national media that reports the news good and bad both sides
is it extreme believe in all the constitution states and EVERY amendment
is it extreme to believe in american exceptionalism , if not why does everyone want to come here
right now the left is the antithesis of these views
anyway the majority of these beliefs are a moderate view and actually were a view of the democrat party years ago but no longer
so if these are your beliefs you know where you belong and your not far anything your the moderate right and right where the middle is and right where the majority of the country is.
both parties are extreme
both parties are far right and far left where are the moderates
they both do it
both are evil and only care about getting elected
kind of like a push in blackjack, no one wins , no ones loses both are the same, the policies cancel out why even vote ?
i might have agreed 10 years ago when i was a democrat of over 30 years.
but now no way
looking at the conservative side
is it extreme to want fair elections
is it extreme to want government agencies to follow the law and treat all persons fairly
is it extreme to mentor your own children in the nature of sex at an age they feel is appropriate .
is it extreme to not want to let a baby die in abotched abortion or live birth
is it extreme to believe in religious liberty
is it extreme to have SCOTUs judges who believe in the constitution
is it extreme to believe in responsible government spending
is it extreme to believe in energy independence and an economy that works for everyone keeping inflation low , tax cuts for all, and an abundant life
is it extreme to believe in safe borders that keep out drugs and dealers
is it extreme to believe in the law that prosecutes those who break it
is it extreme to believe in a safe world with no wars
is it extreme to not tolerate corrupt politicians who sell our country for their on enrichment and work to root them out
is it extreme to want a fair national media that reports the news good and bad both sides
is it extreme believe in all the constitution states and EVERY amendment
is it extreme to believe in american exceptionalism , if not why does everyone want to come here
right now the left is the antithesis of these views
anyway the majority of these beliefs are a moderate view and actually were a view of the democrat party years ago but no longer
so if these are your beliefs you know where you belong and your not far anything your the moderate right and right where the middle is and right where the majority of the country is.