Introspective discussion about ourselves from within the hobby

I apologize in advance for the length of this post. Also, I originally posted this in the Upstate NY forums, but somebody suggested I respost it here, so I did.

This might be a bad idea so if it is, please feel free to tell me/shut down the post, but I'm really curious about the inner psychological lives of us in this community. I often wonder that I cannot be the only person who has grappled extensively with the different implications of being a 'hobbyist'. I'll be the first to admit that when I first started hobbying I was thrown into a deep, deep depression after every encounter because I found myself thinking that I couldn't possibly love my relationship partner while also participating in these acts. To be brief - I got over it and I'm still here. But I have some lingering questions about US as a group of people.

First - conventional wisdom would tell us that we are all 'deviants' of some kind, with the hobbyists being predatory exploiters and providers being unable to give consent because of a variety of reasons. For example, this taken from a wikipedia article on criminology and the hobby:

...[some] "argue that the act of prostitution is not by definition a fully consensual act, as the prostitutes are forced to sell sex, either by somebody else or by the unfortunate circumstances of their lives (such as poverty, lack of opportunity, drug addiction, a history of severe childhood abuse or neglect etc): "In the academic literature on prostitution there are very few authors who argue that valid consent to prostitution is possible. Most suggest that consent to prostitution is impossible or at least unlikely." [39]. "(...) most authors suggest that consent to prostitution is deeply problematic if not impossible (...) most authors have argued that consent to prostitution is impossible. For radical feminists this is because prostitution is always a coercive sexual practice. Others simply suggest that economic coercion makes the sexual consent of sex workers highly problematic if not impossible...""

I should state that I DO NOT agree with all of this- and I generally think a lot of the academic work about the hobby is under developed because it's from an outside perspective. Further, I do see that there are some more unsavory aspects of the hobby that do involve the sex trade and child prostitution - I, myself, find those to be wrong. That said, I am exceptionally curious about what patterns of experience or factors exist as commonalities between all of us.

Do you think we as a community on this forum can discuss this? How did we get here? Are we all just damaged goods by some sort of traumatic moment or abuse in our lives? Are all providers seeking to make up some deeply awful self-esteem deficiency? I realize this is a deeply personal question so I don't expect providers to share us their stories/conflicts, but I am curious about the true reasons we end up here - and if we are open to discussing this non judgmentally I think it would be amazing.

For me - I'll just say I got into the hobby because it was a lot less stressful and way more efficient to contact a provider and get that girlfriend experience than it was to put myself out there in the dating scene and expose myself to rejection or compete with other men. I think it is fair to say that the beauty and class of many of the women on this board put them in a category that some would say are 'out of our leagues' in the non-hobbying world. There is also deep, deep feelings of acceptance I get between provider and hobbyist in that it seems like we acknowledge that in some way we are both "social outcasts" and there is an intimacy and connection that is generated by a mutual acceptance of an aspect of ourselves that we keep hidden from most of the world. This is usually unsaid but I wonder if it's there, lurking under the surface for many of us.

On the flip side - I also enjoy the fantasy of being involved with a variety of beautiful and interesting women, so in some ways I like the aspect of making those fantasies into reality. There is also the excitement inherent in the fact that hobbying is somewhat taboo.

Lastly, I have found that the pragmatic reasons I argue to justify the legitimacy of the hobby (i.e. better than affairs, it's consensual, just meeting a need, mutual enjoyment of provider and hobbyist without commitment and etc) - are all things that occurred to me AFTER I began hobbying - I was drawn to it first, and rationalized it later. That's just me.

It's easy to oversimplify and say that we're all just horny dudes with crappy sex lives at home that want to meet young, attractive women - and that providers are all women who are seeking some sort of validation or affection. It's easy to say that we're all sex addicts and drug addicts who cyclically enable each other, but I find that those statements are a load of crap. The common narratives and generalizations I think we can agree are not adequate to describe our experiences as providers and hobbyists. What do you think?

I apologize for the length of this - it's quite a novel - but I was so excited by the idea of discussing this, I just had to get it all out. Also, I'd be happy to discuss this with anyone through PM as well. And if you think I suck then hey, you can post that too. I just thought I'd take a minute to be real about my questions and see if anyone else out there wondered them too.

It's easy to oversimplify and say that we're all just horny dudes with crappy sex lives at home that want to meet young, attractive women - and that providers are all women who are seeking some sort of validation or affection. It's easy to say that we're all sex addicts and drug addicts who cyclically enable each other, but I find that those statements are a load of crap. . Originally Posted by boredinbingo

No I think that pretty much sums it up for PJ and RK. I'd throw atl and OHM into the mix but atl is still pulling tail off facebook and anybody that names himself OneHotMale is in a league of their own!

I'm here just to watch plus ya'll make me feel better about myself...I thought I was fuc'd up before stumbling onto this bunch.

No I think that pretty much sums it up for PJ and RK. I'd throw atl and OHM into the mix but atl is still pulling tail off facebook and anybody that names himself OneHotMale is in a league of their own!

I'm here just to watch plus ya'll make me feel better about myself...I thought I was fuc'd up before stumbling onto this bunch. Originally Posted by WTF

Yeah, at the outset, opportunity, ease, I think the word the thread starter used was "efficiency." To get what you want without some of the burdens of traditional dating; although as WTF points out I have a pretty active civie life.

I think the important thing to note here is it kind of happened and then evolved since. There was no "master plan" at the outset. (which may be different than some providers that had some kind of plan before they jumped in)

That is an interesting post, boredinbingo.

Basically, what you're wondering is if what we are doing is morally wrong.

Some countries in Europe and elsewhere have debated the issue and finally legalized the hobby and they have continued to operate without fire and brimstone raining down on them.

According to the current laws, the hobby is wrong, but then the laws themselves have sometimes been proved wrong.

Prohibition comes to mind. The US said alcohol was wrong, but people disagreed and the law was finally repealed.

Slavery was another controversial issue and actually used to be legal in this country and it took a very bloody civil war between the states to abolish it.

Maybe in a few generations, the hobby will be legalized in this country.

How would you feel about it then?

Is somebody working on a thesis?

First off, I don't prefer youngsters. I'm 44, and often see providers older than me. Those that are younger are women I consider equals -- at least in the intellectual sphere.

It could be said that, in a way, I hobby for romantic reasons. NOT in the sense of romance; but in the sense of pursuing confirmation of the best that lies within us. I have met providers who are among the most ethical people I have ever met, and embody in various ways some of my highest values. I see it as confirmation of the heroic nature of woman as she can and ought to be, in an idealized form. I like to have beauty in my life.

Yet, I have always been deeply concerned about issues of consent in dealing with providers.

Let me construe my concern this way.

Pretend I'm alone in a room with a woman. I ask her for sex and she says "no." I then pull an object out of my pocket. She looks at the object and then says "yes."

Is there a difference as to the validity of consent depending on whether the object is a gun or $1k?

I asked this of a very bright provider; and she described the first as an object generating fear -- thus negating the woman's free will. Thus consent would not be valid. But she described the latter as a bribe; and gave me a history of bribes offered by males to females in order to secure sex across the animal kingdom. Consent obtained through bribe, she said, is valid.

Okay, I buy that. Kind of. Sort of. But I'm too honest with myself to buy it completely.

Why can't I buy it completely? Because I have known one provider who had been raped when she was a teen; and for whom her next "consensual" sex act was as a provider. She was very highly rated; yet she actively detested the men who saw her. In fact, the very fact they saw her was in and of itself seen as a reason why she regarded them as morally inferior and unworthy of her.

In this case, every man who saw her -- hurt her psychologically -- no matter how well-intended he might have been. She did it because she felt her financial situation required it.

She has since left the business and has been in therapy to deal with the initial issues plus the aggravating factors encountered as a provider.

Well -- she was so good at covering up her feelings that grown men who saw her gave her extremely high ratings.

So, there is always a doubt in my mind, because of my knowledge of that situation. Even a provider who actively pursues my business could be giving consent under some form of duress that I can't see; and could be such a superior actress that she could fool me into hurting her.

That prospect, I won't lie, scares the crap out of me.

Because of this concern; although I keep the process pretty transparent to the provider; I screen screen screen them to death to try to avoid this. On top of this, I try to pick women who will like me, moreso than women I will like. Generally, it works out well.

Though I admonish providers to keep it a secret; even once they make it through my screening -- I even give them the option for the first meeting to be just a dinner (ONLY) date -- for which they collect their FULL FEE. So far, they have all chosen to do the sex thing instead.

But, yes, I AM concerned. Knowing what I know, I don't think that is unreasonable.

No I think that pretty much sums it up for PJ and RK. I'd throw atl and OHM into the mix but atl is still pulling tail off facebook and anybody that names himself OneHotMale is in a league of their own!

I'm here just to watch plus ya'll make me feel better about myself...I thought I was fuc'd up before stumbling onto this bunch. Originally Posted by WTF

Now how the fuk does my name get drawn into this conversation? And yes WTF I am glad that you finally realized that I am in a league all by myself. And I will have you know that most of my dates these last few months have been of the civilian kind. It is nice to have married friends that want to hook me up with their single lady friends. Best part is that I can play the field with no committments.

Though I admonish providers to keep it a secret; even once they make it through my screening -- I even give them the option for the first meeting to be just a dinner (ONLY) date -- for which they collect their FULL FEE. So far, they have all chosen to do the sex thing instead.

. Originally Posted by Laurentius

I'm not sure about some of the rest of what you say but I'll leave it alone for now.

As for the above, for many providers, a date of just sex and a little chit chat is a lot easier and certainly less intimate than actually talking and sharing for a couple of hours. Part of what allows some "diamonds" to charge what they do is handling the latter.

It is nice to have married friends that want to hook me up with their single lady friends. Originally Posted by OneHotMale

God, I bet they are also trying to get orphaned ten year old pyromaniacs adopted!

Part of what allows some "diamonds" to charge what they do is handling the latter. Originally Posted by atlcomedy

They ain't been out with Big Ben!

God, I bet they are also trying to get orphaned ten year old pyromaniacs adopted! Originally Posted by WTF

LMAO!!!!! Nawwww if that is the case then I will tell them that I know of someone who takes on these kind of projects to try and get Karma points. You up for the task?

No I think that pretty much sums it up for PJ and RK. Originally Posted by WTF

What!? I ain't no "dude".

Do I hear Bob Marley music in the background?

Maybe in a few generations, the hobby will be legalized in this country.

How would you feel about it then?
Originally Posted by Fast Gunn

When it comes to value judgments - eh not really. Do I think it's wrong? That's all contextual. If I'm being unfaithful to a woman I know my activity would hurt if she found it - yeah maybe. But an ideal scenario where I'm not attached or whatever, I don't think the act of exchanging services for payment is wrong. And I think if legal or not I'd probably still have found myself here/asked these questions.

What I'm curious about is what about ourselves makes us able to consider this 'okay' when a large portion of the population at least purports to find it wrong. We're all from different political or religious backgrounds judging by the non-hobby conversations I've seen here or on other sites, but the unifying factor is that we're generally okay with this behavior that others find so reprehensible. I assume that we're not all amoral. We don't go around killing people for fun or committing crimes for the sake of it. But what makes us buck the conventional value judgments about this?

I can't really come up with a definitive answer myself. Like I said, I hobbied first and justified later.

Were you guys all okay with it to begin with or did you have to get comfortable with it?

Do you think the needs that you are getting met go beyond the physical or just wanting some company with a nice woman?

Is there something about you that made you more inclined to this?

If there are any providers reading - what needs beyond the financial are getting met for you? - I don't expect providers to weigh in but it would be neat to hear their side.

I really want to believe and make an argument that people in the hobby are not the sickos that the mainstream would suggest we are, but I guess I want to know if we even believe that ourselves.

Anyways thanks for your replies. No it's not for a thesis I'm just a naturally curious person who thinks about these things and wants to talk to others about it.

But, yes, I AM concerned. Knowing what I know, I don't think that is unreasonable. Originally Posted by Laurentius

I worry about this too. As much as we like to put on a bravado that it's all in good fun and that we're not hurting anybody, I do wonder sometimes if we are. I'm not afraid to admit that getting involved in this has changed my life forever. I don't know if I would go down this road again if I went back, it's hard to say.

Like I said in my other reply - I don't think the act of exchanging services for payment is in and of itself wrong, but I do wonder about the impact we have on each other. When I walk away from a meeting and I have a nagging empty feeling - I wonder if the provider does too.

This hobby also creates a barrier between us and the rest of the people in our personal lives. This is such a charged topic that you generally can't share it with others without some sort of judgment. I don't get a lot of relief from this sort of isolation by posting on the board.

I think it's fair to say we aren't like a lot of people in this world because we are capable of doing something that others are not. I want to know why. I don't want to think we're the deviant misfit perverts that the world thinks we are but I just wonder what psychological issues we experience in our daily lives that might be affected by this but aren't mentioned here, or might have even brought us here to begin with.

If anyone has the balls to talk about it, that would be awesome. I know for sure that I don't just see women as an object to use for pleasure, nor am I some predator who likes to hurt providers. But I do grapple with what this means about me that I can do this. I do sometimes feel weird after meeting with a provider. I can't be the only one.

I'm not trying to lead a group therapy session but I just want to know if we share some common experiences/doubts.