The Tennessee Valley Authority a few days ago instituted rolling blackouts for the first time in its nearly 90 year history.
Coincidentally, in the last decade, TVA has shut down 35 of its 59 coal fired power units.
- berryberry
- 12-26-2022, 02:36 PM
- HDGristle
- 12-28-2022, 05:27 PM
Coincidentally, how many of those that were shut down were replaced with cleaner and more efficient combined cycle? Or converted to gas?
Coincidentally, how many net MW were lost?
Coincidentally, which parts of the portfolio increased their generating capacity as coal ramped down? Nuclear? Hydro? Gas?
Coincidentally, when were most of those decisions made?
Coincidentally, was the record utilization concurrent with a record-setting weather event? Were those issues primarily due to a general lack of generating capacity... or to winterization issues and high-winds with impacts to transmission?
I ask these questions, coincidentally, because sometimes you need to address a dumb fucking inference with a pile of questions so that someone can understand why it's a dumb fucking inference.
Coincidentally, how many net MW were lost?
Coincidentally, which parts of the portfolio increased their generating capacity as coal ramped down? Nuclear? Hydro? Gas?
Coincidentally, when were most of those decisions made?
Coincidentally, was the record utilization concurrent with a record-setting weather event? Were those issues primarily due to a general lack of generating capacity... or to winterization issues and high-winds with impacts to transmission?
I ask these questions, coincidentally, because sometimes you need to address a dumb fucking inference with a pile of questions so that someone can understand why it's a dumb fucking inference.
- oldman2525
- 12-28-2022, 05:48 PM
Coincidentally, how many of those that were shut down were replaced with cleaner and more efficient combined cycle? Or converted to gas?HD.... dumb fucking? Tsk tsk. I would have expected a phrase I would have had to look up to see what the hell it meant
Coincidentally, how many net MW were lost?
Coincidentally, when were most of those decisions made?
Coincidentally, was the record utilization concurrent with a record-setting weather event? Were those issues primarily due to a general lack of generating capacity... or to winterization issues and high-winds with impacts to transmission?
I ask these questions, coincidentally, because sometimes you need to address a dumb fucking inference with a pile of questions so that someone can understand why it's a dumb fucking inference. Originally Posted by HDGristle
- HDGristle
- 12-28-2022, 06:17 PM
HD.... dumb fucking? Tsk tsk. I would have expected a phrase I would have had to look up to see what the hell it meantUsed up the remaining $50 words a week ago that I had available as part of my yearly quota. Didn't want to pay per use when in less than a week that sub rolls over, so forgive me not doing what I usually do for your personal edification.
- oldman2525
- 12-28-2022, 06:31 PM
Used up the remaining $50 words a week ago that I had available as part of my yearly quota. Didn't want to pay per use when in less than a week that sub rolls over, so forgive me not doing what I usually do for your personal edification. Originally Posted by HDGristle
https://youtu.be/2JfzMqwltHk
- HDGristle
- 12-28-2022, 06:40 PM
- LayingPipe
- 12-28-2022, 07:21 PM
You need to address a dumb fucking inference Originally Posted by HDGristle
No inference at all Biden's war on energy is responsible for the energy crisis in this country No amount of lies from the Biden apologist can hide the truth
Biden made new rules on gas pipeline that make them impossible to build and no investment means less gas
‘Reckless Decision’: Biden Administration Adds Climate Roadblocks for Future Pipelines, Energy Projects - Tennessee Star
- HDGristle
- 12-28-2022, 07:48 PM
Welcome, pipe. Thanks for the words and link that have nothing to do with TVA's recent kerfuffle.
I get that you want to blame someone for a problem, but this one is shared over several administrations worth of decisions, good and bad. Many made based on cost. And a lack of planning for an outlier. It also shares some similar failure points that extreme weather and record demand expose in the grid. Lack of coal wasn't the root cause here just as it wasn't in Texas.
This was a planning and resiliency failure, not a total capacity or fuel mix (portfolio) failure.
Do you know what it takes and how long it takes to fire up a power plant? Blackstart or grid-assisted? Do you know what generation methods have the fastest startup and rampdown times? Do you know how plants schedule outages? Do you know who makes those decision? Do you know the optimal frequency that's needed for the grid to be in balance? Do you know why load shedding is a last resort?
I get that you want to blame someone for a problem, but this one is shared over several administrations worth of decisions, good and bad. Many made based on cost. And a lack of planning for an outlier. It also shares some similar failure points that extreme weather and record demand expose in the grid. Lack of coal wasn't the root cause here just as it wasn't in Texas.
This was a planning and resiliency failure, not a total capacity or fuel mix (portfolio) failure.
Do you know what it takes and how long it takes to fire up a power plant? Blackstart or grid-assisted? Do you know what generation methods have the fastest startup and rampdown times? Do you know how plants schedule outages? Do you know who makes those decision? Do you know the optimal frequency that's needed for the grid to be in balance? Do you know why load shedding is a last resort?
- LayingPipe
- 12-29-2022, 03:09 AM
Welcome, pipe. Thanks for the words and link that have nothing to do with TVA's recent kerfuffle. Originally Posted by HDGristle
WRONG 59 clean coal fired plants in TVA shutdown because they were forced to do so Biden/Obama started the war on energy in 2009 . US coal plants are 40% cleaner than China and India who are building new dirty coal plants at a rate of 1 a week. Even Germany is forced to reopen old coal plants because Biden put all 6 LNG export terminals projects under review(see link below) They are decades behind because Biden forced them to stop construction US coal exports have soared under Biden by 300% Biden is the worst global environmental president in history
Sec. 2. Immediate Review of Agency Actions Taken Between January 20, 2017, and January 20, 2021.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...limate-crisis/
- HDGristle
- 12-29-2022, 06:15 AM
You definitely want to double check your facts, Pipe. I'm aware of that EO and that the closure processes laid out keep coal plants running past 2030 like at Kingston and Cumberland.
I'm aware of Berry's figure of 35. He's citing it as plants. You're citing 59 plants.
Don't bring that bullshit in here. Go list out the plants that were closed and you'll notice something. You're not talking about plants. You're talking about units at plants and that's a fact and a distinction that matters. Many of those units were replaced directly with newer, more efficient and more nimble CCGT units while the coal-fired units remained in service until replaced.
Why were they replaced? When the decision was made what were the economics in play? Don't fall into the partisan policy trap, look at the costs, the efficiency (not emissions), whether any were blackstart, which types of units are the most flexible, etc. Look at when the decisions were made.
How many total coal plants did TVA directly operate in the early 2000's? How many total power generating plants? You will want to know those numbers if you'd like to have a real conversation about this instead of just spouting uninformed partisan rhetoric.
And to lay down this marker... none of that really has anything to do with the load shedding that occurred that berry's original "coincidence" infers as being due to lack of coal "plants"
I'm aware of Berry's figure of 35. He's citing it as plants. You're citing 59 plants.
Don't bring that bullshit in here. Go list out the plants that were closed and you'll notice something. You're not talking about plants. You're talking about units at plants and that's a fact and a distinction that matters. Many of those units were replaced directly with newer, more efficient and more nimble CCGT units while the coal-fired units remained in service until replaced.
Why were they replaced? When the decision was made what were the economics in play? Don't fall into the partisan policy trap, look at the costs, the efficiency (not emissions), whether any were blackstart, which types of units are the most flexible, etc. Look at when the decisions were made.
How many total coal plants did TVA directly operate in the early 2000's? How many total power generating plants? You will want to know those numbers if you'd like to have a real conversation about this instead of just spouting uninformed partisan rhetoric.
And to lay down this marker... none of that really has anything to do with the load shedding that occurred that berry's original "coincidence" infers as being due to lack of coal "plants"
- Dr-epg
- 12-29-2022, 07:07 AM
Gentlemen
Let’s stop trading barbs make your point and move on
Let’s stop trading barbs make your point and move on
- HDGristle
- 01-10-2023, 01:03 AM
https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../02/701189.htm
https://m.slashdot.org/story/409048
https://www.commercialappeal.com/sto...s/69777461007/
So, what we've learned is that winterization was a problem and equipment froze. Some coal and gas generation was knocked out by a combo of cold temps / high winds and that the weather impacted transmission in some areas.
Considering which coal plants froze up, and that even a gas fired plant went down it actually does show that a "war on fossil fuels" here was a red herring. That fuel mix wasn't the concern and it was very much a failure of legacy systems, poor planning and how a significant weather event rather than a fuel mix or fossil portfolio was the primary cause.
https://m.slashdot.org/story/409048
https://www.commercialappeal.com/sto...s/69777461007/
So, what we've learned is that winterization was a problem and equipment froze. Some coal and gas generation was knocked out by a combo of cold temps / high winds and that the weather impacted transmission in some areas.
Considering which coal plants froze up, and that even a gas fired plant went down it actually does show that a "war on fossil fuels" here was a red herring. That fuel mix wasn't the concern and it was very much a failure of legacy systems, poor planning and how a significant weather event rather than a fuel mix or fossil portfolio was the primary cause.