U.S. Supreme Court rules same sex marriages legal.

Wheretonow's Avatar
I did not equate to nazi concentration camps. You distorted what i said. I can see why you became defensive. I said he went beyond your views, but before that he had the same views as yours, which is the freedom to discriminate.

My solution is that racism and discrimination of minorities is abhorrent and should be prosecuted under the law. Yes, you bet that is my vision and the majority of the American people. Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker
Since redundancy in the name of clarity is sometimes necessary with close-minded people, I'm going to repeat what I said in an eariler post:

"I'm frequently bewildered by people who want to make others accept their lifestyle. I personally wouldn't want to give my business to (and therefore contribute to the success of) a business who dislikes me or my life choices.

I think it's despicable to choose to dislike or harm someone because of the color of their skin, their ethnic heritage, their sexual orientation, or any reason other than their actions.

But freedom of expression is one of the foundations of our collective heritage, and it seems that we're rapidly sinking to the lowest common denominator - if ANYONE dislikes what you're doing or saying, then you have to stop it or we have to ban it.

We are rapidly becoming a nation that looks for reasons to dislike each other, and finding them. We try to legislate against opposing views while espousing "diversity". To me the definition of tolerance is accepting that there are views that differ from mine, even if they seem to be intolerant or distasteful or biased.

There's lots of money to be made by catering to divergent lifestyles. Why not let the market dictate what business model is ultimately successful? Rather than sue the businesses that won't serve you, why not help advertise the ones who will?"
Luke Skywalker's Avatar
You say it is despicable, but you think individuals have the right to discriminate. Same as the early views of Hitler and contrary to the majority of Americans.

I find your views abhorrent. You find mine stupid, close minded and naive.

I rather be stupid.
Wheretonow's Avatar
You say it is despicable, but you think individuals have the right to discriminate. Same as the early views of Hitler and contrary to the majority of Americans.

I find your views abhorrent. You find mine stupid, close minded and naive.

I rather be stupid. Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker
And in a truly free and diverse society, all of those views, and any others that did not result in physical harm, would be equally tolerated.
Luke Skywalker's Avatar
And in a truly free and diverse society, all of those views, and any others that did not result in physical harm, would be equally tolerated. Originally Posted by Wheretonow
True. And thats why people like you are free to profess their discusting views. Long live freedom of speech. But if you are a banker and refuse a loan to a black person based on their skin color, you ass should be sued. I love the United States of America, land of true freedom, not your vision of freedom.

Go ahead and have the last word. We both know you need it.
Wheretonow's Avatar
True. And thats why people like you are free to profess their discusting views. Long live freedom of speech. But if you are a banker and refuse a loan to a black person based on their skin color, you ass should be sued. I love the United States of America, land of true freedom, not your vision of freedom.

Go ahead and have the last word. We both know you need it. Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker
Here's a flash for you LS - there are people who are going to dislike you, and no amount of government intervention is going to change that.

You'd save yourself a lot of grief if you'd let those people you see as bigoted have their view of the world, and you continue with your "the government needs to punish people who don't believe the way I do" mode. Because that's exactly what they believe.
In a truly free and diverse society, a business owner would be allowed to conduct business with those of his own choosing - the principle of "freedom of contract", which is further described below.

In the case of the bakery that refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple and the photographer who refused to photograph a gay wedding, it is possible that a case could be made for harm IF there were no other bakeries or photographers available to perform these services. In both cases the businesses were intentionally sought out because the gay parties knew they would refuse to do business with them. There were plenty of other businesses willing and able to perform the requested services, therefore the gay parties were not harmed in any way.

The only entities truly harmed were the businesses who lost revenue because of their beliefs. However this financial loss was one they were willing to incur.

"Classical contract theory rests upon three fundamental propositions. First, the exercise of freedom of contract between equal parties in markets of perfect competition is the key to individual welfare and the common good. Freedom of contract is defined as the power to decide whether to contract and to establish the terms of the bargain. "We have been proud of our 'freedom of contract,' confident that the maximum of social progress will result from encouragement of each man's initiative and ambition by giving him the right to use his economic power to the full. Second, enforcement of bargains as made protects the reasonable expectations of the parties that promises will be performed and contributes to certainty and stability in the marketplace. "It is a presupposition of the whole economic order that promises will be kept. Indeed, the whole matter goes deeper. The social order rests upon stability and predictability of conduct, of which keeping promises is a large item."'Thus, the bargain contract is the manifestation of liberty in the marketplace and the vehicle to facilitate the most efficient allocation of resources in the economic order. "Contract thus became the indispensable instrument of the enterpriser, enabling him to go about his affairs in a rational way." Finally, state action "is an evil, for it can only have for its object the regulation of the exercise of rights, and to regulate the exercise of a right is inevitably to limit it." Accordingly, it is the duty of government to exercise restraint and to protect the right of the individual to contract freely." Originally Posted by Wheretonow
Now let's assume "religion" has no bearing on this controversy. Then can you explain how this Oregon bakery and Elane Photography could have lawfully refused business dealings with gays, lesbians, and any particular ethnic gruop they cared to single out? By openly doing businesses with the general public, they are legally obligated to enter contractual relations with willing patrons capable of fulfilling the terms and conditions of the said pact, so long as the contractual acts are not prohibited by the laws. Would you please explain how gays and lesbians are less capable of holding their end of the bargains than others, Professor?

Now please follow me closely on this one: A wrongdoing is a wrongdoing, the end result won't alter its nature at all. If a burglar broke into a residence and got himself shot by the homeowner acting in self-defense, the fact still is that he broke the law, even if he was the only one who suffered the "harm" by his own wrongdoing. And you ought to know how the rest goes....

State action, according to you, is evil. But you somehow concede it's a necessary evil. The Solution? Think about the use/abuse of the deadly force by the police, we can't eliminate its occurance, but we surely can do something to curb its abuse....
As I have previously stated, I have no problem with gay marriage, but in answer to your question, the following is a Bible verse often quoted by Christians that they say indicates God's dislike for gays. There are several others, both in the Old and New Testiments, if you care to look them up.:

Romans 1:26-27King James Version (KJV)

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Originally Posted by Wheretonow
I ask for "any dealing," but you haven't come up with any. I wonder why.... Because you can't, or you WON'T...?

At any rate, I am truly grateful on how far this Oregon bakery and Elane photography have "progressed" from their "Christian upbringings"....

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

By the way, the Bible advocates the killing and raping of women and children after victorious battles over the "infidels." Of course you wouldn't practice that "Christian belief" in real life, because doing so would have made you a war criminal. Am I right, Professor?
Sorry to keep you waiting, Luke.
Wheretonow's Avatar
Now let's assume "religion" has no bearing on this controversy. Then can you explain how this Oregon bakery and Elane Photography could have lawfully refused business dealings with gays, lesbians, and any particular ethnic gruop they cared to single out? By openly doing businesses with the general public, they are legally obligated to enter contractual relations with willing patrons capable of fulfilling the terms and conditions of the said pact, so long as the contractual acts are not prohibited by the laws. Would you please explain how gays and lesbians are less capable of holding their end of the bargains than others, Professor?

Now please follow me closely on this one: A wrongdoing is a wrongdoing, the end result won't alter its nature at all. If a burglar broke into a residence and got himself shot by the homeowner acting in self-defense, the fact still is that he broke the law, even if he was the only one who suffered the "harm" by his own wrongdoing. And you ought to know how the rest goes....

State action, according to you, is evil. But you somehow concede it's a necessary evil. The Solution? Think about the use/abuse of the deadly force by the police, we can't eliminate its occurance, but we surely can do something to curb its abuse.... Originally Posted by andymarksman
i'm tired of trying to explain principles to a person who clearly is unwilling or incapable of understanding them, so here's my last post on this subject.

I think it's despicable to discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation, skin color, ethnic background, or any other reason other than their individual actions.

But in a truly free and diverse society, people would be free to enter into or not enter into contracts for their goods and services with anyone of their choosing.

The state should not, either by law or breacratic action, get involved in these personal transactions. Obviously that is not the situation we have today.

But laws can be changed and in this case they should be. The entire civil rights movement was based on civil disobedience, and Supreme Court rulings have been overturned 220 times, and many more of their rulings have been overruled by legislative actions and Constitutional amendments.

As long as a person's beliefs do not result in physical harm to others, they should be allowed to act in accordance with those beliefs, no matter how despicable they are to others.

Being more inclusive is accepting that people will have these despicable beliefs. You can wish that they didn't. You can try to convince them not to. You can not buy their products. You can write editorials about how wrong their beliefs are. You can organize boycotts of their business. But the government should not take actions that force them to do business with you if they choose not to.

Have a nice life.
As I have previously stated, I have no problem with gay marriage, but in answer to your question, the following is a Bible verse often quoted by Christians that they say indicates God's dislike for gays. There are several others, both in the Old and New Testiments, if you care to look them up.:

Romans 1:26-27King James Version (KJV)

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Originally Posted by Wheretonow
Where's the bible verse about Paul having a thorn in his side? I'd recon that was code for having a dick in the ass during Jesus's time.
Wheretonow's Avatar
Where's the bible verse about Paul having a thorn in his side? I'd recon that was code for having a dick in the ass during Jesus's time. Originally Posted by Adrienne Baptiste
AB - You'll have to find someone else to debate whether the Bible must be taken literally or is subject to interpretation, because I don't know and I don't care.
Duthgar1976's Avatar
Ok i got to page 5 and couldnt go any further. What i find amusing is how some of the people here seem to be thumping their bible about gay marriage being the end of this country. You do remember you are on a site that is designed to pick up women for pay to play right?

Maybe if you are so against gay marriage you should take a long look in the mirror and remember what the bible says about whare doing. Not exactly the christian lifestyle guys.

I am no damn liberal either so dont start throwing that word at me either, im an independent and have a lot of libetarian friends who even think gay marriage is no big deal.
i'm tired of trying to explain principles to a person who clearly is unwilling or incapable of understanding them, so here's my last post on this subject. Originally Posted by Wheretonow
I am sorry if you feel that way.... Have you been resting well in the last couple of days?
[QUOTE=Wheretonow;1056943289]
I think it's despicable to discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation, skin color, ethnic background, or any other reason other than their individual actions.[/QUOTE]

Well, "despicable" is not "unacceptable," correct?
But in a truly free and diverse society, people would be free to enter into or not enter into contracts for their goods and services with anyone of their choosing. Originally Posted by Wheretonow
This one may not be quite "ideal" to your liking, but at least close enough....

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...closeted_N.htm