MLK: "I Have A Dream!" Obama:"I Have A Drone!" Here Are All The Children Murdered By Drone Strikes At The Hands Of Obama

War is hell. Originally Posted by timpage

And nothing about it fair. Originally Posted by TheDaliLama

Those are the two smartest and most relevant posts in this thread.

And the idea that we cannot strike at terrorists because killing innocent children will create even more terrorists is ludicrous.

Collateral casualties are inevitable in ALL wars. So you are essentially saying "the terrorists win because we cannot fight back".

If terrorists know that we won't strike back, THEN we will get a lot more terrorists.

It may not be fair to let gays in the military.
It may not be fair to let women fight on our front lines.
It may not be fair to totally annihilate our enemies.
It may not be fair that innocent people are killed.

The job of our military is to break things, kill people and to win wars and to do it as efficient as possible.. That's exactly what our enemies are trying to do to us.

If you're in a fight with a one armed man and you tie one of your arms behind your back to make it fair....and you start to get your ass kicked.... Tell me you wouldn't free that other arm and do what it takes to finish things.

So, ExNyer, you're saying that if another country identified an enemy in the US and sent a drone to take him out, and your child was in the vicinity of the strike and killed, you'd say, "Well, I guess that just happens in war." Really? Seriously? I doubt it.

If you were neutral before then, you wouldn't be after that. You'd join whatever group there was opposing that other country.

Or do Muslims not care about their children?

So, ExNyer, you're saying that if another country identified an enemy in the US and sent a drone to take him out, and your child was in the vicinity of the strike and killed, you'd say, "Well, I guess that just happens in war." Really? Seriously? I doubt it.

If you were neutral before then, you wouldn't be after that. You'd join whatever group there was opposing that other country.

Or do Muslims not care about their children? Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You dress up a very difficult decision and make it look artificially simple.

ONCE YOU HAVE MADE THE DECISION TO GO TO WAR, do you allow sanctuary to the enemy because they use hospitals, churches, mosques, and children as shields while shooting from behind them? Both litterally and figuratively at times?

Personally, from the grand perspective POV, I am not very comfortable with any answer I come up with. This is nothing new--my first encounter were the AAA the N Vietnamese put on top of earthen dams. I didn't know a good answer then, and I don't know one now.

So, ExNyer, you're saying that if another country identified an enemy in the US and sent a drone to take him out, and your child was in the vicinity of the strike and killed, you'd say, "Well, I guess that just happens in war." Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Strawman argument.

We are killing terrorists either in countries that explicitly or implicitly support the terrorists (like Afghanistan prior to invasion) or in areas of countries that are completely lawless (tribal regions of Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Mali, etc.)

If terrorists are operating in the US, we will arrest and prosecute them. If they are planning operations here and conducting them elsewhere, we arrest them and turn them over to the foreign government.

And note that I said "terrorist", not "identified enemy" which I suspect is some slippery phrase you have used to set up a case of Iran (or someone else) identifying opposition activists in the US as "enemies" of Iran and Islam and then killing them on US soil for otherwise peaceful efforts to overthrow the Iranian government. In case you try to bring it up, I do NOT accept that as a "terrorist" and NO they can't kill them on US soil.

I don't accept the premise that we have to respect the sovereignty of foreign countries that aren't even sovereign enough to stop guerrilla armies from being set up on their own soil.

If the people of a nation are such clusterfucks that their societies and cultures provide fertile breeding grounds for terrorist ideologies, then they must pay the price.

If Achmed sits idly by while jihadis take over his town or province and start conducting terrorism around the world, then Achmed shares the blame. He should have fought the jihadis or helped us to fight the jihadis. If not, if he jsut want to stay uninvolved, then he shouldn't complain with the cruise missiles start flying.

Actions - and inactions - have consequences.

So never mind that these are undeclared and illegal wars. Never mind that these are primarily wars for profit, and not for victory. Never mind that killing US citizens here or abroad is completely unconstitutional.

There is a difference between war and peace. We are in some "magic" limbo area where we are fighting an undeclared war mainly for oil and profit. If it's my child, it's not collateral damage. It's killing a child for no demonstrable national interest. That is murder, and is a war crime. Bush and Obama should BOTH be put on trial, and spend the rest of their lives in prison for perpetrating this fraud on America.

From the oldest of times, people danced for a number of reasons. They danced in prayer, or so that their crops would be plentiful, or so their hunt would be good. And they danced to stay physically fit, and show their community spirit. And they danced to celebrate.'' And that is the dancing we're talking about. Aren't we told in Psalm 149? "'Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song. Let them praise his name in the dance.'' Amen. And it was King David- King David, who we read about in Samuel. And what did David do? What did David do? What did David do? ''David danced before the Lord with all his might leaping and dancing before the Lord.'' Leaping and dancing. Ecclesiastes assures us that there is a time for every purpose under heaven. A time to laugh and a time to weep. A time to mourn and there is a time to dance. And there was a time for this law, but not anymore. See, this is our time to dance. It is our way of celebrating life. It's the way it was in the beginning. It's the way it's always been. It's the way it should be now. -Ren McCormack

So never mind that these are undeclared and illegal wars. Never mind that these are primarily wars for profit, and not for victory. Never mind that killing US citizens here or abroad is completely unconstitutional. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Wow, I don't accept a SINGLE one of those premises.

Stop giving me the left wing line about the capitalists wanting wars to make profits. As a libertarian, it is beneath you. Or should be.

There isn't a dime to be made in Afghanistan and never has been. I don't care how many times WTF says there is. I don't think there will be in my lifetime. It is an anarchistic shit hole.

We aren't there because we want Northrup-Grumman to make money on drones. We are there because we are afraid to let it fall back into Taliban hands again. I think that is the wrong strategy. i think we should wreck the place and leave. If the Taliban re-establish themselves, we wait a few years and come back and wreck the place again. Eventually they will get the message.

Likewise, there isn't a dime to be made in Somalia or the Sudan or Pakistan. The only "resources" they have are semi-literate, fundamentalist Muslim populations. That isn't something we are interested in exploiting.

The fact that somebody makes a profit building an F-18 does not mean that defense contractors cause wars.

Somebody also makes a profit selling fire trucks, but I don't think those manufacturers are a bunch of arsonists.

Also, arms manufacturers make profits from making AR-15s, shotguns, rifles and handguns. Does that mean that gun makers cause crime?

Are you in favor of doing away with the 2nd Amendment and getting rid of all those weapons in order to stop all that profit making?

So, ExNyer, you're saying that if another country identified an enemy in the US and sent a drone to take him out, and your child was in the vicinity of the strike and killed, you'd say, "Well, I guess that just happens in war." Really? Seriously? I doubt it.

If you were neutral before then, you wouldn't be after that. You'd join whatever group there was opposing that other country.

Or do Muslims not care about their children? Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

thought when you saw them beheading Americans,you said kill them all.

Or do Muslims not care about their children? Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Actually, there is a good case to be made that they don't.

Or at least there is a strong enough case that they don't care enough about them to not raise them to think that suicide bombing is an acceptable thing to do.

Or that they don't care enough about them to refrain from referring to them as martyrs when they blow themselves up on a bus full of innocent people.

Or they don't care enough about them to not turn them over to some imam in a madrassa who will indoctrinate them in fanaticism.

Or they don't care enough about them to make sure the female ones are given an education.

Or they don't care enough about them to make sure the female ones are not sold off as baby-making machines to abusive husbands 20 years older than them.

Or they don't care enough about them to make sure the female ones are never subjected to the hideous practice of "honor-killing" if they refuse to be married off to some stranger.

I could go on. And on. And on.

But what's the point?

But what's the point? Originally Posted by ExNYer

That's an easy one to answer.

StupidOldLyingFart never has a "point."

(Except on top of his pointy little head)

Actually, there is a good case to be made that they don't.

Or at least there is a strong enough case that they don't care enough about them to not raise them to think that suicide bombing is an acceptable thing to do.

Or that they don't care enough about them to refrain from referring to them as martyrs when they blow themselves up on a bus full of innocent people.

Or they don't care enough about them to not turn them over to some imam in a madrassa who will indoctrinate them in fanaticism.

Or they don't care enough about them to make sure the female ones are given an education.

Or they don't care enough about them to make sure the female ones are not sold off as baby-making machines to abusive husbands 20 years older than them.

Or they don't care enough about them to make sure the female ones are never subjected to the hideous practice of "honor-killing" if they refuse to be married off to some stranger.

I could go on. And on. And on.

But what's the point? Originally Posted by ExNYer

They don't care enough about them to stop practicing female genital mutilation.

They don't care enough about them to stop letting old men marry little girls.

Islam is evil.

Islam is evil. Originally Posted by joe bloe

Joe the Bloehard is an IDIOT!

Next!!!!!

We are there because we are afraid to let it fall back into Taliban hands again. I think that is the wrong strategy. i think we should wreck the place and leave. If the Taliban re-establish themselves, we wait a few years and come back and wreck the place again. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Wow, that is such a great strategy..... for creating more terrorists. 1 of the main reasons terrorist groups have a stronghold in the country is because it's an extremely poor shithole. Most people are extremely poor and have have little economic/political clout. This gives a powerful organization like the taliban the opportunity to exert their will. If we just go in and wreck the place like we did in the 80s along with the Russians, and then just leave, all that's gonna do is make the people resentful, making them more likely to join the taliban. The fact is that you can't defeat terrorism by simply killing terrorists. You have to change hearts and minds, and in the case of a poor country, you have to empower people.

Joe the Bloehard is an IDIOT!

Next!!!!! Originally Posted by bigtex

I take it you think Islam is a good religion, since you call me an idiot for saying it's evil. My guess is you don't know anything about Islam; if you did, you wouldn't defend it. Take a few mintues and read about female genital mutilation. Tell me you don't think it's evil.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/