Illegal Immigration.. your thoughts

Eddie,
Thanks for the reply.
1. I agree that taxes are paid on purchases but I believe most people when making the claim that taxes are not being paid are referring to federal income tax. It’s true that FICA/Medicare deductions are made from “payroll” checks but they are not made from checks for “contract labor”. This is a tricky area because many employers use this payment as a way to save money in taxes and insurance. This is not done solely with illegal’s. I am with you 100% that the tax code is the biggest convoluted pile of shit and nobody can understand it. I agree that other races claim numerous dependents to avoid paying income tax. That doesn’t make it right and this discussion is about illegal aliens. I don’t think any of my statements were racist in the least. I’m all for getting rid of the IRS and going to a consumption tax or a flat tax but that is for another discussion.
2. Sealing the border is not as difficult as many believe. Increasing the Border Patrol and / or putting soldiers in place to patrol areas would take care of it. This is not anything like the Berlin wall. That was meant to keep people in. A big difference. I don’t think we need additional agencies. Just fix the ones we currently have and quit using them as a political football.
3. I do think the government and the politicians are the bad guys. They are so quick to make new laws and place blame on the producers of this country it makes me sick. We have the laws in place if they would just enforce them. If the federal government would do their job Arizona would not have the new law everybody seems so concerned about.
4. As far as businesses that seek out illegal’s and pay them less, I don’t think they are the norm. IMO. Another thing about paying someone in cash, less money per hour does not necessarily mean less money. Eddie, I don’t believe that everyone that is working for $5.00 PH is capable of doing the job of the man making $15.00. I’ve run construction companies for many years and all employees were paid based on what they could do for me. Period. If you were a skilled tradesman you would be paid accordingly. Other things that came into play were dependability, transportation, driver license and driving record, the ability to speak and understand English, ect. If I had two employees that were equally qualified in a trade but only one could speak English and I could put him on my insurance so he could drive a company vehicle then he would be paid more regardless of his race or immigration status.
5. Immigration law does need to be fixed and streamlined. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t protect our borders. I also don’t think that this is just now becoming a big issue. Many have been concerned with this for years. I think it is big news today because of the Arizona law. It is the Federal governments job to protect our borders but they fail to do so and continue to play politics with this issue. Arizona is not usurping the feds power but are forcing their hand in this situation. Regardless of whether or not Arizona’s immigration problem is bigger than Texas or California is a moot point. Arizona is taking care of Arizona. Would it make you feel differently if Texas passed a similar law? Since you asked, I am Caucasian. I believe we will never agree on racial profiling. IMO it should be used when appropriate.
6. You are correct that those of us who were born in this country are lucky but that is beside the point. Borders need to be protected and immigration needs to be streamlined. In that order.
7. If you want to talk about hypocrisy how about the immigration laws of Mexico? And the president of Mexico wants to lecture us on the Arizona law. Give me a break.

Thanks Budman, you know reading your response I've come to the conclusion that we're not far apart ideologically.

I'm also for protecting our borders and streamlining immigration law. I think our differences come in the degrees we're willing to go and in our sociopolitical experiences.

I don't believe in an open border or that we shouldn't protect our borders. That's crazy. Of course we should protect our sovereignty. I don't think it should go to the extreme of shooting people at the border as some posters have suggested. I do think that we need more border patrol agents, and they need more training, but I also believe that the ones we have now are doing an outstanding job. I think it's much better for them to concentrate on getting human and drug traffickers who come across the border than it is for them to stop one or two illegals coming in. I'd rather they concentrate on the big picture than miss it for trying to catch a few scattered illegals.

I also believe we should streamline immigration and I feel we could accomplish this with a comprehensive immigration reform. Immigration laws aside from being difficult and complex are also draconian and severe. They are also slow and expensive. They need to be changed.

On to your points, as far as federal income tax, I was pointing out to you that saying illegals put many dependents on their tax return is akin to saying black people have a lot of babies to get welfare. Its NOT true and there are NO studies showing that any race makes more dependents deductions. However, my point is that if people are here in this country they should pay taxes and that is an argument for comprehensive imm reform.

We'll have to agree to disagree on employers. I've seen workers paid extremely low wages, or not at all. It seems you are not that kind of employer nor you do business with those that do, so kudos to you.

No we will NEVER agree on racial profiling. It is never appropriate. I know there is fear. Arabs, Mediterraneans, all these people can not be held accountable for the actions of a few. My guess is that you have never been put in a situation where you were accused of wrongdoing simply for the color of your skin.

Finally, yes the Mexican president lecturing us on our immigration policies what a jerk. Oh wait he was merely voicing his opinion, just because you have similar policies does not mean you can't voice an opinion about other's policies. Wait didn't you say something similar to me about it being short-sighted to not allow other to voice opinions even if their actions are similar. I wish the President of Mexico had a better translator, I heard the original speech, and the translator butchered it.

Finally, yes the Mexican president lecturing us on our immigration policies what a jerk. Oh wait he was merely voicing his opinion, just because you have similar policies does not mean you can't voice an opinion about other's policies. Wait didn't you say something similar to me about it being short-sighted to not allow other to voice opinions even if their actions are similar. I wish the President of Mexico had a better translator, I heard the original speech, and the translator butchered it. Originally Posted by eddiecruz

Apples and oranges. He is in charge of Mexico and not just a citizen. Ionly heard it thru a translator so I will take your word for it that it was butchered.

I agree we are most likely not that far apart. If we ever meet the first rounds on me.

Budman

but there are a couple of game changers that must be addressed: 9/11 and the integration of violent Mexican gangs into areas such as L.A for the express purpose of moving drugs, are very real concerns. Originally Posted by oden

total bullshit on both parts here...
9/11 changed shit IMO..what it did change was our own civil liberties.
besides what terrorist has ever crossed the mexican border? i even had read a long time ago when this shit first started about 9/11 and the mexican border, that the mexicans crossing here would actually take out whatever terrorists trying to cross. Why? cuz them for sure it would be a closed border and hurt them.

the "gangs" have always been here pushing drugs. the only reason you hear about it more now is because of the violent power struggle happening in mexico after the death of that one guy from the gulf cartel and the arrest of osiel, and now the death of leyva. now if you think those gangs werent ever here to begin with, you must have your head in the sand or up your ass, choose one.

I think there are some great points made in this thread on both sides of the issue but there are a couple of game changers that must be addressed: 9/11 and the integration of violent Mexican gangs into areas such as L.A for the express purpose of moving drugs, are very real concerns. Originally Posted by oden

Oden, your killing me man. I would love to see how your going to tie 9/11 and the Latin Kings into a conspiracy theory. I must have missed that Discovery Channel show.

Only Oliver Stone could do that. My point is to know who is crossing our borders.

total bullshit on both parts here...
9/11 changed shit IMO..what it did change was our own civil liberties.
besides what terrorist has ever crossed the mexican border? i even had read a long time ago when this shit first started about 9/11 and the mexican border, that the mexicans crossing here would actually take out whatever terrorists trying to cross. Why? cuz them for sure it would be a closed border and hurt them.

the "gangs" have always been here pushing drugs. the only reason you hear about it more now is because of the violent power struggle happening in mexico after the death of that one guy from the gulf cartel and the arrest of osiel, and now the death of leyva. now if you think those gangs werent ever here to begin with, you must have your head in the sand or up your ass, choose one. Originally Posted by bigrich75

I went to high school in El Paso and still have in-laws there, second generation from Mexico. I used to go to Juarez every other week to shop and get a haircut. Sometimes go over after hours for late night fun. Only a fool would do that now as 3,000 people have been killed in Juarez in the last year alone and the Mayor of Juarez spends more time in El Paso in a safe house than Juarez! The gangs have shot up the El Paso Court House and killed the Ambassador within 300 feet of the border. Larado is a nightmare heavy weapons that you would expect to see in a war zone.

Let me get this straight, I am a Texan and love the integration of cultures we have here. I think Texas would not be what it is today without this special mix of cultures and cannot survive without the continuation of the special relationship that we have enjoyed over the years. However, to try and say it is business as usual on our borders is to have your head in the sand about a serious problem.

I miss the ability to go worry free to Piedras Negras, Villa Cuna, Matomores, Nuevo Laredo etc..., I don't want to have the same problems here.

I don't own a small business but have employed illegal aliens in the past. I guess I will never be a politician. However I have helped all of them(3) get green cards. One had a nephew that was one of the first casualties in Iraq. He would have won his citizenship had he lived.

To me it is not about immigration, its documenting who they are!

total bullshit on both parts here...
9/11 changed shit IMO..what it did change was our own civil liberties.
besides what terrorist has ever crossed the mexican border? i even had read a long time ago when this shit first started about 9/11 and the mexican border, that the mexicans crossing here would actually take out whatever terrorists trying to cross. Why? cuz them for sure it would be a closed border and hurt them.

the "gangs" have always been here pushing drugs. the only reason you hear about it more now is because of the violent power struggle happening in mexico after the death of that one guy from the gulf cartel and the arrest of osiel, and now the death of leyva. now if you think those gangs werent ever here to begin with, you must have your head in the sand or up your ass, choose one. Originally Posted by bigrich75

I guess since the 911 terrorist did not come across the Mexican border you don't think we have a problem. That's total bullshit. Do you think we should wait until we have caught a terrorist crossing the border before we protect our border?

It also appears that you don't believe the gang wars are a big deal. That we should just let them fight it out amongst themselves and once they settle their little power struggle everything will be OK. FUCK THAT. IMO we should tell the Mexican goverment that if they don't get that shit under control we will. If that means senting some of our special forces into Mexico to kill these drug lords, so be it. We cannot allow their turf war to spill into our country and threaten our citizens.

That we should just let them fight it out amongst themselves and once they settle their little power struggle everything will be OK. Originally Posted by Budman

That's exactly what we should let them do. You seem to forget that their loyal customer base needs to be kept safe and secure so that they can make their profits; besides our citizens love being the consumer.

That's exactly what we should let them do. You seem to forget that their loyal customer base needs to be kept safe and secure so that they can make their profits; besides our citizens love being the consumer. Originally Posted by CLoner

Unfucking believeable.

Unfucking believeable. Originally Posted by Budman

CLoneris right...
if you know or even know or think you know....
the majority of mexicans would probably side with the cartel from sinaloa, chapo's cartel, and i think one of thier affiliates called la familia all against los zetas and the gulf cartel.

bieng from the border myself, i have seen some of the narco banners and messages people have put in acuna and in PN which say things to the effect of "welcome chapo(guzman)"...

some of these banners even ask the army and govt to let them settle things thier way and things would settle down after they take out the rest of the zetas and the beltran leyva cartels, which probably wouldnt be a bad thing.

most of the ppl are against los zetas because they and the leyva cartel do interfere with alot of "civilian" business that have nothing to do with the cartels. alot of the civies dont like that and thats why many of them side with chapo and la familia. I think it would be a good thing if we let the cartels take each other out and let things settle the fuck down already. but then who is to say that once chapo rules all of mexico if things would settle down.

And the whole muslim terrorist bullshit... if i can find the link i know i read that the cartels wouldnt like the whole alquiada shit come thru mexico. they never wanted anything to do with them; of course the media throws smoke up ur ass and claim some went into business with them, which again is crap. That was acredited to the guys in the sinaloa cartel.

I guess since the 911 terrorist did not come across the Mexican border you don't think we have a problem. That's total bullshit. Do you think we should wait until we have caught a terrorist crossing the border before we protect our border?

It also appears that you don't believe the gang wars are a big deal. That we should just let them fight it out amongst themselves and once they settle their little power struggle everything will be OK. FUCK THAT. IMO we should tell the Mexican goverment that if they don't get that shit under control we will. If that means senting some of our special forces into Mexico to kill these drug lords, so be it. We cannot allow their turf war to spill into our country and threaten our citizens. Originally Posted by Budman

we dont have a problem with terrorists here in america, its BULLSHIT. wtf has happened since 911? NOTHING.. oh yea wait the times square bullshit and the tower in dallas bullshit... oh yea they CAUGHT those guys, and did they come from mexico? NO...
you must be one of those fox news sheep.. remember if you follow the rest of the flock, you will step in shit.

send our troops into mexico? HA it wouldnt solve a thing... remmeber ALOT of the zetas and some others were trained here and have passed alot of that training to other members; also alot of spec.fr. from other countries are aligned with the cartels; and they have the weaponry as well.
but thewn maybe we should get them out of two other bullshit wars like iraq and afghanistan

Legality is not the issue.

We have ten percent unemployment and can't afford any foreign workers here right now.

Mexico is a cleptocracy and a failed narco-state. It is President Calderon and his buddies who are behind the violence there now, including the war going on in Juarez. Calderon is supporting one cartel in its takeover the existing one in Juarez, and is using the army to do it. The violence in Mexico is like during the civil war there exactly one hundred years ago when the United States army intervened because of the spill-over into the border states. Similar violence is spilling over into Arizona and New Mexico now.

If the Mexican government doesn't stop the violence the U.S. SHOULD INTERVENE DIRECTLY IN MEXICO with troops as it did in 1914. This kind of show of force would also solve a lot of other problems there. We don't need to be nation-building in the Middle East, but we should be kicking the asses of the criminal Mexican government ON BEHALF OF THE MEXICAN PEOPLE WHO WOULD THANK US!

Calderon stole the election in the first place with the help of George W. Bush. Everyone in Mexico knows this.

We have ten percent unemployment and can't afford any foreign workers here right now. Originally Posted by fatenchilada

You and your friends find yourselves losing out menial jobs because of immigrants? C'mon.


The cartels learned very early to take care of their customers in many ways. They can thank the tobacco and alcoholic beverage companies for their methods in sustaining their market. Keep them sedated enough so they can work and come back as a customer tommorow. Think of the problems between them as no different than say the fast food wars that go on in the states every now and then. Really it is no different. Like I said, don't let them scare the shit out of you.

You and your friends find yourselves losing out menial jobs because of immigrants? C'mon.


The cartels learned very early to take care of their customers in many ways. They can thank the tobacco and alcoholic beverage companies for their methods in sustaining their market. Keep them sedated enough so they can work and come back as a customer tommorow. Think of the problems between them as no different than say the fast food wars that go on in the states every now and then. Really it is no different. Like I said, don't let them scare the shit out of you. Originally Posted by CLoner

You are exactly right. In fact I was at a Taco Bell just the other day when a bunch from the Taco Cabana Cartel came in and shot the place up. I was lucky to get out with my crispy taco. I've heard the same shit is happening between KFC and Popeyes. Exactly the same as the Mexican Drug Cartels. What a fucking idiot.